Further ?

ualflynhi

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Nov 19, 2002
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So true when I'm laid off that will be it for me.Except maybe for some
work on a few cropdusters.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/03/06/s...n.ap/index.html
... We lost some individuals with skills we
couldn''t afford to lose during the past
decade, O''Keefe said, and now these skills
need to be replaced. Through downsizing and
the normal attrition process, we lost key areas of our institutional knowledge base. ...
Is this where the airline industry is headed? --- Yes it is.
 
I feel this does not only apply to pilots.

It applies to the dictated professionals that build the aircraft.
It applies to the dictated professionals that maintain, fuel, and clean the aircraft.
It applies to the dictated professionals that operate the aircraft (front and rear).
It applies to the dictated professionals that assist the passengers in their travel.
 
Amen to that!
IMHO UAL is asking for trouble if they start out-sourcing most of their maintenance.
Over the years I have taken it for granted that UAL mechanics were working on my aircraft, and it was a comforting feeling. I'm not sure how I'll feel about some third-world operation performing engine overhauls on my Airbus.
 
Maintenance VP William Norman held an informal meeting today in SFOMM. He said flatly, IND & OAK will be closed. He could not confirm how much maintenance from those two bases would be farmed out or transferred to SFO. Draw your own conclusions. He also said the BOD was fully committed to formulation of the LCC despite union opposition and skepticism. The BOD does not favor the TPG deal that would downsize the mainline by 20-25% and include the closure/sale of two domestic hubs and no LCC.
 
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737nCH11, There is a lot of worked already farmed out more than I'm
happy about to be sure.Also along with the well publicized incident like
the airbus there much much more that doesnt get any attention.Incidents
of electrical circuit breaker assemblies being cleaned repainted and
yellow tagged after a secretary signed them off.Engines failing on takeoff
on a 747 just released from a good ole boy 3rd party station.One day
someone is going to die for this lack of q.c. and I mean independent
untouchable inspection like Ual's own.Even then some mistakes occur
but in total our in-house maint. is excellent.


p.s All those circuit breakers were not really tested maybe thats why
the secretary was forced to do it.And one other thing the many years I
have spent on the line at UAL I will leave here with a clean record knowing that no one died or was injured because of me my conscience
is clear.Good luck to us all.
 
Yes, we were all just given another one of those PowerPoint presentations that was supposed to drive home the clear fact that we are 27% more expensive than the OSV. The problem is that the numbers were wrong.

They had our hourly wage wrong.

Under "Vacation and Holidays" they claimed a cost of $7.59/hr. I'm no mathematician but using a four dollar calculator that comes out to 469 hours of vacation and holiday time per year per Mechanic. Did they pull this number out of a hat or am I coming into work on those 28 extra holidays I have and didn’t know about?

Under “Sick Leave†they claim a cost of 12 days of sick leave per year, per Mechanic. How many Mechanics do you know of that used 12 days of sick leave last year? What about all of those Mechanics who have never taken a day of sick leave, have a maxed out balance and are not even earning any more?

Under “Fringe Benefits†they claim a cost of $15/hr per Mechanic. Do you mean to tell me they spent $35,000 on my medical coverage last year and I only went to the doctor once?

Now on top of all this they add in everything else it takes to keep this facility running and compute the cost of putting out two lines of maintenance. What about all the special route work? What about projects like the 777 Primex that involved redoing a job that was incorrectly done by an OSV? A project that lasted nearly six months.

And finally, let’s talk about the OSV’s themselves. We all know they are talking about Timco. How about the fact that Timco LOST $140 million last year, $211 million the year before? How about the fact that Timco hasn’t made any profit in over three years? What about BF Goodrich? Chapter 7. Can you name one single OSV that has been in business with the same name for more than two years?

Like ualflynhi said, when they lay me off I’m done with this industry. This is the sentiment of just about all of us.
 
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  • Thread starter
  • #9
The aviation work I want to do maybe for free
just to do some apprentice work on GA aircraft
like cropdusters or 100 hr inspections,oil changes just
to keep my license current.
 
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/12/2003 3:13:47 AM kcabpilot wrote:

Yes, we were all just given another one of those PowerPoint presentations that was supposed to drive home the clear fact that we are 27% more expensive than the OSV. The problem is that the numbers were wrong.

They had our hourly wage wrong.

Under "Vacation and Holidays" they claimed a cost of $7.59/hr. I'm no mathematician but using a four dollar calculator that comes out to 469 hours of vacation and holiday time per year per Mechanic. Did they pull this number out of a hat or am I coming into work on those 28 extra holidays I have and didn’t know about?

Under “Sick Leave” they claim a cost of 12 days of sick leave per year, per Mechanic. How many Mechanics do you know of that used 12 days of sick leave last year? What about all of those Mechanics who have never taken a day of sick leave, have a maxed out balance and are not even earning any more?

Under “Fringe Benefits” they claim a cost of $15/hr per Mechanic. Do you mean to tell me they spent $35,000 on my medical coverage last year and I only went to the doctor once?

Now on top of all this they add in everything else it takes to keep this facility running and compute the cost of putting out two lines of maintenance. What about all the special route work? What about projects like the 777 Primex that involved redoing a job that was incorrectly done by an OSV? A project that lasted nearly six months.

And finally, let’s talk about the OSV’s themselves. We all know they are talking about Timco. How about the fact that Timco LOST $140 million last year, $211 million the year before? How about the fact that Timco hasn’t made any profit in over three years? What about BF Goodrich? Chapter 7. Can you name one single OSV that has been in business with the same name for more than two years?

Like ualflynhi said, when they lay me off I’m done with this industry. This is the sentiment of just about all of us.

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kc,
I am going to play the devils advocate here, so don't jump on me. I actually feel the same way about Ual's fuzzy math.
I am not sure how they arrive at their firgures, but here are some examples of cost for Ual to have their own mechanics, and not have them. My figure was that benefits cost the company about 37% over wages.

A station that has mechanics needs a lunch room, bathroom facilities, foreman, and people to cover the vacations, sick time and days off. If someone gets hurt, they need overtime to replace him and also pay the injured employee.

Now if all things are equal and outsourcing is of the same quality as in house work, it all adds up to what is the cheaper way to go. It is all about competition today, and you are also competing with contract labor, just like Ual is competing with the other airlines for customers.

I know! Your arguement is that the quality isn't there in outsourcing, but, until there is a major crash, the bottom line will prevail.

In order to keep the work in house, wages and work rules have to be competitive with outsourcing. If Ual employees get 6 weeks vacation and contract people get 2 weeks, something has to give.
If there are no mechanics in the station, R&D is done by a lower cost employee who also loads or cleans the plane.

We are in a different world today, compared with the days when companies were owned by one person. With stock owned companies, you can never make enough profit for the stockholders. Bottom line is everything today. It is the only measure of success for a company.
Lay off people and the stock goes up.

I still see too many posters here who beleive they have a right to work for what they dictate. Choke the goose.

It might be time to start explaining why keeping you is better than contract, or figure out how you can save the company money with in house work.

If you depend on the union to do this for you, forget it.
 
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/11/2003 8:10:56 PM ual06 wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/03/06/s...n.ap/index.html

... "We lost some individuals with skills we
couldn't afford to lose" during the past
decade, O'Keefe said, "and now these skills
need to be replaced. Through downsizing and
the normal attrition process, we lost key areas of our institutional knowledge base." ...


Is this where the airline industry is headed? --- Yes it is.


----------------
[/blockquote]

This also mirrors the practice of senior mechanics of not correcting errors in manuals and not submitting easier processes for maintenance procedures. They keep the knowledge to themselves or in their group. They can often fix an airplane in a few hours that would take someone else days to fix, if it gets fixed at all. If the manual has a long awkwardly written procedure full of errors, it is not in the mechanic's interest to correct it, as it will only go to aid those outside the group that are competing to fix the airplanes. Why should they fix a procedure that will also aid the low cost competitor who flies the same plane, when they can keep that information to themselves and cause others to have to go through the same learning curve their group had to go through? Why fix a procedure so some hunky in a OSV who doesn't read english very well can do their jobs?

In the past it was common to have senior mechanics work with junior mechanics so that the knowledge that wasn't written down could be shared, but with all of the downsizing, this practice has fallen out of favor due to the operational needs of the modern downsized airlines. This seems shortsighted, even though it is cost effective in the short term.
 
Yes Steiner, you are correct. I flew up front, but I sure liked to turn wrenches in my garage. It was always a joy to fix what was broken. Those who choose to be mechanics, in general, do not like to write. But the older types do have what may be considered a flaw. That is they love to talk and love to teach the young - if the young wants to learn. Grab one - stick close as possible - listen with an open mind for as long as that old joker is available.
 

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