Gasoline up 100% under Obama

[SparrowHawk]

I'm these fees have nothing/little do do with customer demand for smaller vehicles. These fees are from 2007 but I think it gives a pretty good idea why people drive smaller more fuel efficient vehicles in addition to the fact that roads a bit smaller.

EU taxes

I couldn't find a good article on the Tax/Fee structure where all of the info was in one place but I'm not sure the fees have as much impact as you may think. The disparity in registration fees in the 50 states is staggering. Yet they seem to have little, if any influence on purchase decisions and yet there is a giant loophole that is out there that could have a significant impact on purchase decisions.

To register a Vehicle the cost of an imaginary Toyota Camry is a whopping $220.00 over 5 year in OR as they have no sales tax, while the very same vehicle over five years if purchased in Nevada would be $2507.00

Another point to ponder is the CAFE loophole. If you own a car with a combined EPA MPG rating less than 22.5 MPG you get socked with the gas guzzler tax. HOWEVER, if that same vehicle is classified as a light truck, oh say a Ford F-150 it's exempt from the Gas guzzler tax which may explain the growth and popularity of SUV's & light trucks.

This loop-hole was brought to you in part by a secret society with a lobby more powerful than the NRA in my opinion. The Lobbyists in this secret society own entire state governments and wield tremendous clout on a bi partisan basis. You know them as "The Farm Lobby" They are also the reason that #2 home heating oil and diesel fuel are a different price. "#2" is IIRC 29 cents less per gallon. It's also tinted with a dye so you can tell which is which for tax purposes.

If you visit Family farms you'll see that 1000 gallon oil tank filled with #2 and if you snoop around the tractors will be too. Point to all of this is that it's not all that easy to determine the effect of taxes on behaviors as we may think. While I agree that BOTH Infrastructure and the TAx code keep Europeans in small vehicles it is less clear what percentage of vehicles purchased solely on one or the other attribute. I've seen Ford Explorers in AMS with Netherlands plates so the government doesn't outright say no to SUV's and the like which is what the tree-hugger crowd seems to want here. Oddly Enough the big SUV is just as big if not bigger status symbol iin AMS as it in in DFW.

One thing I am certain of, is that while my brief search was enlightening I remain unconvinced that social engineering via the tax code is proper. The primary goal should be to raise money, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[delldude]

Nope, I didn't get screwed nor was I gouged. I've long been in favor of higher gasoline prices. You posted that you didn't recall gas ever hitting $5/gal when Bush was President and my post shows that you obviously didn't drive by any of my neighborhood stations in July (and late June) of 2008 when I saw plenty of gas over $5/gal.

Keep blaming the President for retail gasoline prices. Might as well howl at the moon. And I'm the one who's not very bright?

What does one get from being in favor of higher gasoline prices?
You got stock in big oil or what?

 

[SparrowHawk]

This Just in from Facepalm Department:

View attachment 9019

Xcel Energy Inc. has canceled a $400 million wind farm in southeastern North Dakota that potentially threatened two endangered birds.

Under federal law, Xcel would be required to mitigate threats to the whooping crane and the piping plover, a step that carried "uncertainty in the cost and timing," the company said in a regulatory filing Friday.

Xcel said it terminated a 2008 agreement with EnXco Development Corp. to construct the 150-megawatt Merricourt Wind Project in Dickey and McIntosh counties. The project was to have been completed this year.

"We are glad that they made the decision," said Robert Johns, a spokesman for the American Bird Conservancy, which has raised concern about an estimated 440,000 birds killed each year by wind farms.

The whooping crane, the tallest bird in North America, is down to 400 in the wild, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The piping plover is listed as endangered in the Great Lakes area, with just 63 known nesting pairs in 2008.

 

[Ms Tree]

There is no effect on vehicle choice because the tax/fee structure has nothing to do with the type of vehicle that you buy (not including the 6000lb BS for vehicles that I believe expired). In CA and AZ where I lived for a time, the annual registration fee was based on the value of the car. Whether I bought a $50,000 diesel Mercedes or a $50,000 Corvette the tax would be the same so my decision to buy a fuel efficient vehicle or a race car would not be affected. Look at the same two cars in Europe and your operating costs are going to be quite different. The diesel will be much less.

In Europe, even the large chassis cars such as the 7 series BMW's, S class Mercedes, A8 Audi ... are all offered with diesel options. None of them are offered in the US. I believe the reason is fuel cost as well as the tax/fee cost difference for operating the vehicles. There is also the fact that diesel is less expensive than RUG (as it should be since it costs less to refine) so there is no cost to off set like there is here in the states.

 

[JS]

The last job I had required a lot of unreimbursed driving and low pay (thanks for the crappy job market, Obama), anways, I quit when gas hit $4 a gallon. I just can't part with such a large % of my meager paycheck for something as common and necessary as gasoline. :angry:

 

[SparrowHawk]

There is no effect on vehicle choice because the tax/fee structure has nothing to do with the type of vehicle that you buy (not including the 6000lb BS for vehicles that I believe expired). In CA and AZ where I lived for a time, the annual registration fee was based on the value of the car. Whether I bought a $50,000 diesel Mercedes or a $50,000 Corvette the tax would be the same so my decision to buy a fuel efficient vehicle or a race car would not be affected. Look at the same two cars in Europe and your operating costs are going to be quite different. The diesel will be much less.

In Europe, even the large chassis cars such as the 7 series BMW's, S class Mercedes, A8 Audi ... are all offered with diesel options. None of them are offered in the US. I believe the reason is fuel cost as well as the tax/fee cost difference for operating the vehicles. There is also the fact that diesel is less expensive than RUG (as it should be since it costs less to refine) so there is no cost to off set like there is here in the states.

Operating costs may be lower but depending upon the car a diesel maintained "By The Book" loses some of it's Luster and the cost differential isn't quite as great as you might think. Also Diesel versions of the Audi are headed to the US and the 10Cylinder Diesel for the Q7 is already here and I think the Q5 and A-3 as well. Another issue is that a diesel cost about $2500 more at the A-3 level which means if you drive 100000 miles over 5 years the fuel cost has to be at least $3/hr for the Diesel to break even in the US. Now I can hear the howling now that fuel is between $6 & $8 USD "over there" and it is. However you can drive from Bastogne, BE near the German Border leaving at 8AM and be on the beach in Oostend, BE by lunch time. IOW it takes longer to get from PHL-PIT than is does to traverse the entire country of Belgium so so folks don't drive nearly as far as Americans do. Another factor given the shorter distances between cities is a rail system that for any significant distance travel the public transportation system is the way to go. Personally I've only ever rented a car for an entire vacation once and two time for a few days each to get to areas with poor public transit.

Even if you argue the issues the way round one of the significant reasons you can have a thriving and vibrant economy @ $8 Euro/Gal is the fact that even if you drive from one end of Europe to another it's not going to be a whole lot further than PHL-FAR, so there are just less miles to be driven.

 

[Ms Tree]

First off, not sure about you but I have owned diesels all my life (have one now) and I do not see any cost issues with maintaining a diesel over a gasser. With the older cars it was far more evident. Change the oil at recommended intervals and call it a day. No plug, points, rotors, wires, carbs or any of that crap to deal with. These days most cars are designed with very high service intervals (I don't trust them but what ever). Some of the newer diesels require additives every so often but again, not much in the way of maintenance. I have yet to meet someone who goes 'by the book' after the warranty expires.

As for the premium, the consumer is getting ripped off. Just like with the fuel prices. With the cars, the supply is low and the demand is high so they gouge the consumer. Given the volume that the producers make for the rest of the world, there is no justification for the price difference.

Again you are missing the point on the reason diesels are so popular in Europe. It has nothing to do with the car (or at least very little). It has to do with the taxes and fees. The fees to register a $50,000 2.0 or 2.5 liter diesel (4 or 5 cylinders) will be far far less than the cost of a $50,000 6 or 6.5 liter gasser that cranks out 500hp. The gasser will get hit on the cc and the Co2 out put every single year. There is a reason that diesels out number gassers (or close to it) in Europe. They are cheaper to run in every single category.

Pull up the Ebay listings for Europe some time. You are going to see far more 2.0 and 2.5 liter diesel MB's than the 3.0 liter we get here. Diesels are offered in many more sizes than are offered here and they are offered in nearly every model that a manufacture offers. The consumers are not hell bent on HP because HP costs more money. They will get a 1.5 liter or 2.0 liter engine in a mid size car because the fees are lower and the mileage is far better.

And when you look at the listings, look at how many diesels are at the top of the mileage chart. Even here in the US where the percentage of diesels is very small, the first page of high mileage MB's (biggest seller next to VW) had more than 50% diesels. The engines are bullet proof and will last more than most people will even keep their cars.

 

[delldude]

How about injectors and intercoolers and fuel rail and turbo troubles...?

Don't forget all the cold weather troubles the new Government mandated fuel has with absorbing water and freezing.....

Most the diesels used are crammed into a very small engine compartment and are quite hard and costly to repair.

 

[Ms Tree]

How about injectors and intercoolers and fuel rail and turbo troubles...?

Don't forget all the cold weather troubles the new Government mandated fuel has with absorbing water and freezing.....

Most the diesels used are crammed into a very small engine compartment and are quite hard and costly to repair.

How about those parts on your gasser? Same things just higher pressures. The wifes car has 130k on the ODO and still running the original parts. Wife was working over night when the temps were in the teens here a few months ago. I told her to glow it 3 times just in case but it started right up and settled down to a easy idle right away. The newer diesels are much much better in cold. In extreme climats you may need a block heater. I had a 77 2.4 liter 4 cyl that hated cold weather. I would take it skiing in Big Bear CA starting it was a royal PIA. Wish I would have bought it with a block heater. I had the engine out for a rebuild (dealer screwed it up and then told me to pound sand. Sued and got the cash to rebuild it. I thought about putting one in but figured why bother. Hind sight huh?

IN the tech forum there is hardly any mention of fuel rails and inter coolers. Actually I dont think the diesel MB's at least have an inter cooler. Not sure as I have never had one. The turbos are pretty solid. Every now and then someone has mentioned them but not often.

Put a good filter and change it aver 20k or 30k and you should be fine. I am on a MB forum and no one has mentioned any issues with cold weather problems.

No more so than any other car. My wife's is a 95 and I can see floor on both sides of the engine. The newer vehicles not so (gas or diesel does not matter). My dealer and indy charge by the hour. The parts for the diesel are no more than for the gasser. I have not seen any studies regarding cost but I see nothing to suport your claim that there maint cost is higher for a diesel than a gasser. Given all the electronics in both, I think they would be equally a PIA to maintain.

I went to one of my parts sites and looked for parts out of curiosity.

Injector $133-d $144-g
oil filer $11-d $8-g
timing chain $166-d $114-g
engine mount $68-d $93-g


Just a few I could find matching items on. Not a huge difference either way. I have owned both and both can be a royal PIA to work on. I had a bad glow plug on the 95 last year. I had to pull the intake off in order to get to the glow plug. Not a huge ordeal but the punk who designed it never had to work on it. took about 3 hrs total for me fo figure 1 hr for a dealer in real work but they probably bill 2 or 3. I've looked under the hood of a gasser and I doubt it would be much easier to replace an injector or such on a gasser. JMHO.

 

[eolesen]

I've owned diesels and gassers, and give me the diesel anytime. Recurring maintenance as noted by Tree is minimal, and the higher economy is worth it.

They also hold their resale value over gassers, so the extra $2500 you might pay up front will be returned if/when you sell.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I've owned diesels and gassers, and give me the diesel anytime. Recurring maintenance as noted by Tree is minimal, and the higher economy is worth it.

They also hold their resale value over gassers, so the extra $2500 you might pay up front will be returned if/when you sell.

The resale value tends in my experience to fluctuate relative to the cost of gas. I had a Jetta Diesel for years and it ran so well that next go around I'm getting another one.

My point is it's not quite so simple when you start to compare and contrast between Europe/US & Gas/Diesel and taxation policies.

Like I said in an earlier post I do not believe in using the tax code for social engineering. no matter how good the idea. We've gotten ourselves into more than one situation doing here. Want at least a smoking gun?

Let's try the Housing market? Almost no one would question that the ability of the average American to own their own home is a pretty good idea. So we alter the Federal Income tax to permit deduction of home mortgage interest, another seemingly good idea. So flush with success we help create Fannie & Freddie. So far, so good, so why not have the FHA & the VA guarantee/insure home mortgage loans. OK then we get as a result what some might call an artificial market and then put the sub prime boys in the mix, Shake, stir in a faltering economy and POOF you have the housing bubble bursting all over the economy throwing the US into a deep recession, the effects of which will be felt in the housing market for years to come.

As a Libertarian I have to at least ask if all of that social engineering over the last 50 years has resulted in more home ownership or not? It has created far more debt both personal and public then anyone imagined possible in just a few short years. As a nation we do not lead the world when it comes to the percentage of households who own homes. In fact we're kind of middle of the pack.

I have no idea what the long term energy policy should be by the federal government. Given the Federal Governments propensity to screw up anything it touches, as a nation we will move away from oil and fossil fuels into a society that uses every technology out there that is viable and economically sustainable. Frankly, left alone the energy market will seek its own level and in the end the consumer will be the victor.

 

[Ms Tree]

My problem is I do not believe the consumer is the victor. The auto industries bought up a lot of the pubic transportation (look at Los Angeles). They did this in large part to sell more cars. No more trolly to get from A to B so I have to buy a car. So instead of a city that is built up like NYC (dense and vertical with great public transportation, you end up with a city that is spread out. And so went the rest of the nation. We had a love affair with the car and set up most of the nation to depend on them with no forethought as to what comes next. The consumer is getting screwed and the companies are making money (or at last were).

During the last gas crunch in 2008 train ridership spiked so high where available that most lines had to add extra cars and frequency. Prices dropped and ...poof. People do not think ahead.

I wish someone had stopped the public transportation from going away. I wish fuel prices had been higher and stayed higher from the 70's (perhaps people would have listened to Carter and broken our dependency on oil) instead of dropping and allowing us to continue our love affair with oil and terrorists. We squandered 40 years of development potential so that we could have a corvette that can do 0-60 in 4 sec. For what? So that we can send over 5,000 soldiers to fight and die for the oil to run that POS corvette?

I do not see the correlation between a happy consumer and unfettered capitalism. I see a consumer as pin ball being bounced around and manipulated. Sometimes on top but more often on the bottom getting it in any open orifice.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I do not see the correlation between a happy consumer and unfettered capitalism. I see a consumer as pin ball being bounced around and manipulated. Sometimes on top but more often on the bottom getting it in any open orifice.

Take a look at air fares as proof positive that a free market makes for lower consumer prices. I also can make for shitty customer service, something that the airlines have mastered with few notable exceptions. WalMart, Target & Kmart/Sears smashing it out makes for better prices. Those who don't care for the quality or country of manufacture of the products sold can always go to Macy's.

Now this is not to say we do away with all regulation as some Libertarians would advocate. Take the FAA regulation regarding the number of passengers per flight attendant. Most would agree that left to their own devices the airlines would replace F/A's with vending machines while commenting upon the Industry's Safety record to justify removing F/A's. But stop and ask yourself if the "Splash Landing" on the Hudson would have turned out the same?

The challenge is the same as Corporations have when they refer to "Right Sizing" when it comes to staffing levels. Regulation, while neither a panacea nor Pandora's Box has their place. Like staffing, it needs to be right sized. Stringent enough to ensure the intended goals are met yet lenient enough to allow growth & profitability. Getting the balance is where Government is often an abject failure as regulators tend to be an inflexible bunch and capitalism is the opposite.

 

[Ms Tree]

That is the point I have been making all along. This is a not a zero sum game. Regulations are not bad all the time. Capitalism is not bad all the time. And no, socialism is not bad all the time. Perhaps it is time to start taking the good things out of various systems.

 

[SparrowHawk]

That is the point I have been making all along. This is a not a zero sum game. Regulations are not bad all the time. Capitalism is not bad all the time. And no, socialism is not bad all the time. Perhaps it is time to start taking the good things out of various systems.

Socialism or Social Justice whatever you desire to call it is never good when mandated by Government. Social Security is a farce and a scar upon freedom and personal liberty. Actually it was an cynical pre election year fraud perpetrated by FDR's desire to be re-elected. Life expectancy then was under 60 and benefits didn't kick in until 65.

Any sitting POTUS has a tool at their disposal that IMO is underutilized. That tool is the worlds largest Bully Pulpit from which to encourage all of us to do better. Do better at work, home and in the community where we live. Yes we can tax and redistribute wealth as we are now with often dubious results or we can inspire the population to worthy endeavors, that while freedom and liberty are conferred to us not by government, but by our creator that these freedoms carry powerful obligations and responsibilities as a citizen of these United States.

The place for socialism and social justice is in the hands of those who embrace the basic concept that we are morally obligated to help each other. The role of government in the Republic is to foster opportunity for all, so that those inclined have the ability to share their wealth not by government edict, but out of a sense of duty and honor to their fellow man. Utopia? Perhaps. But any effort that gets us closer to that ideal should be embraced