Get Ready AA is Next !

TWAFA007

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Sep 2, 2002
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Aloha,
This is a glimse at what is going to happen at AA in the very near future. Get ready. Remember we are losing way more money than UAL.
United Plans Fewer Pilots, Attendants
Wednesday January 29, 12:18 pm ET
United Airlines Plans 25 Percent Fewer Pilots, Flight Attendants, Report Says
CHICAGO (AP) -- United Airlines intends to reduce the number of its pilots and flight attendants by up to 25 percent and implement a two-tier pay structure under the new business plan it has devised in bankruptcy, a published report said Wednesday.
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The Chicago Tribune, citing unidentified sources, reported that pilots and flight attendants working for a planned new discount carrier to be operated by the airline would be paid significantly less than those on regular United flights.
United declined comment on the report.
The world's second-largest airline, which has posted heavy losses since mid-2000, filed for Chapter 11 federal bankruptcy protection on Dec. 9. It is required to compile a new business plan in the first 120 days of bankruptcy to show its lenders how it intends to return to profitability.
A key to United's financial strategy is a planned $2.4 billion reduction in annual labor costs, which the carrier outlined last month in bankruptcy court. CEO Glenn Tilton also said last month that United plans to launch a low-cost carrier to compete with Southwest Airlines as part of efforts to regain its financial footing.
United spokesman Joe Hopkins said Tilton would present the plan to the board of directors of United's parent, UAL Corp., on Thursday. He said specifics were given Monday to financial advisers of United's creditors committee, which is monitoring the bankruptcy reorganization and includes its three major unions, but not detailed in full to employees yet.
Our plan is to share the information with our employees before we share them with wider audiences, Hopkins said.
Spokesmen for the flight attendants and machinists said Wednesday they have not been briefed on the plan. Representatives of the pilots' union did not immediately return phone calls.
United has laid off 20,000 workers since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks and currently has about 78,000 employees, including nearly 20,000 flight attendants and about 8,500 pilots.
According to the Tribune, it would need only about 6,000 pilots under the reorganization plan, and they would be required to increase their flight time to an average of 50 hours a month, up from the current 36 hours.
The report also said United's plan calls for contracting more of its regional routes to its commuter partners -- Atlantic Coast Airlines, Air Wisconsin and SkyWest Airlines -- which operate planes bearing the United Express logo and would be permitted to fly larger, 70-seat jets. And the report said United likely will close its Indianapolis maintenance center.
United is seeking concessions from its unions after a bankruptcy judge approved temporary wage reductions of 29 percent for pilots, 9 percent for flight attendants and 14 percent for machinists, who include mechanics, ramp workers and customer contact workers.
The company reports fourth-quarter and full-year results on Friday and is expected to exceed the $2.1 billion loss of 2001 -- an industry record that has since been exceeded by American Airlines.
UAL shares fell 6 cents to $1.09 in midday trading on the New York Stock Exchange.
UAL pilots only flew an average of 36 hours per month? Gee, no wonder they couldnt make any money. They want to up that to a wopping 50 hours. Sounds like slave labor to me. Does anyone know what the average is for AA pilots?
I think that AA Unions should make a stand and not let AA management push them around. After all its all their fault.
ALOHA, 007
 

AA80Driver

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Jan 16, 2003
111
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[blockquote]
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On 1/29/2003 1:12:58 PM planemech669 wrote:


Then you double that number to account for non-flying time that a pilot spends preping for a flight and you get 1400 hours a year or 120 hours a month that they actually are at work. That is still a far cry from the 40 hours a week that I put in to make sure they have a plane to fly! Also, they are GUARENTEED that 60 hours wether they actually fly them or not.
That should answer any questions of mismanagement. It's not labor's fault that management caved into an economically unsound contract with unrealistic terms.

JMHO
"Stupid is as stupid does": Forest Gump.

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[/blockquote]

First, you guys are going down the wrong path with this average flight hour figure. The average flight hours are typically lower than what line pilots actually flies because they include training time (which is up exponentially due to equipment displacements), deadhead time, sick, vacation, reserve staffing levels,credit time due to ineffecient trips, etc... Much of this inefficiency is due to the business model (hub/spoke) and multiple fleet types.

Second, If you double a pilots flight time, you'll get an approximation of actual time spent on duty. But, time away from base is actually much higher...typically in the 250-300 hour time frame per month. Unless you have some fetish for Holiday Inns at "BFE", crew shuttles and airport security, then this is part of the job.
 

Wild Onion

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Aug 21, 2002
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If every major US airline is in the same boat as AA, how exactly is it management's fault?

There doesn't have to be "fault". The economy sucks. Let's cooperate, get what's broken fixed, and move on.
 

capeman

Member
Aug 30, 2002
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www.usaviation.com
All the major airlines are now going to have to file chapter 11 sooner or later. The economy is in a slump. UA and UsAir seem to have the upper hand now that they filed. They will get all their unions to do what ever management needs now. This is AMR's dream. The government will not get in the way. We will have to live by basic means for a while, in order to keep our jobs.
 

planemech669

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Aug 20, 2002
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GSW/LAW
www.linkedin.com
[blockquote]
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On 1/29/2003 1:02:54 PM WingNaPrayer wrote:

I think AA pilots are something like 700 hours per year which is about 60 hours a month.
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[/blockquote]

Then you double that number to account for non-flying time that a pilot spends preping for a flight and you get 1400 hours a year or 120 hours a month that they actually are at work. That is still a far cry from the 40 hours a week that I put in to make sure they have a plane to fly! Also, they are GUARENTEED that 60 hours wether they actually fly them or not.
That should answer any questions of mismanagement. It's not labor's fault that management caved into an economically unsound contract with unrealistic terms.

JMHO but I lay the blame squarely on the booming bust of the dot coms!
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
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miami
goldwatermiller08.com
Let me first say check your UAL numbers. UAL has not given its 4th quarter numbers. So you are comparing their 3 quarters to our 4. Second Mr. know it all, more than a Billion was write-off's from A/C and other losses not actual cash burn. Big difference between a write off loss and an actual monetary loss which has to be repaid.
 
OP
T

TWAFA007

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Sep 2, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 1/29/2003 1:01:11 PM FA Mikey wrote:

One we are not losing more money than UAL. We have far more strengths, than UAL. Plus AA is not planning an airline in an airline.
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[/blockquote]
Aloha Mike,

Do you live near a river called da nile? See if you can follow this simple math problem. AA lost over $3.5 Billion in '02. UAL lost $2.1 Billion. 3.5-2.1=+1.4. That is $1.4 BILLION MORE than UAL lost.

Could you tell what, "far more strengths," AA has over UAL? Its a fact that UAL has a better route system. Is it that AA pays its F/As more than anyone else. Please tell us. The stockholders would like to know. Do you know for a fact that an airline in an airline is not in AA furture? In these times anything could happen.

ALOHA, 007
 

AAquila

Senior
Sep 22, 2002
357
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[blockquote]
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On 1/29/2003 1:18:54 PM capeman wrote:

All the major airlines are now going to have to file chapter 11 sooner or later. ----------------
[/blockquote]

Does that mean that after all is said and done, AA is still # 1 ?
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
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miami
goldwatermiller08.com
[blockquote]
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On 1/29/2003 1:35:52 PM TWAFA007 wrote:

[blockquote]
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Could you tell what, "far more strengths," AA has over UAL? Its a fact that UAL has a better route system. Is it that AA pays its F/As more than anyone else. Please tell us. The stockholders would like to know. Do you know for a fact that an airline in an airline is not in AA furture? In these times anything could happen.

ALOHA, 007

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[/blockquote]
Sure, a few strengths are that we own more of our planes than UAL. We serve a better mix of business and vacation destinations than UAL. We offer more room for all coach passengers a plus for us. We own Eagle the feeder and its bottom line adds to the over all AMR numbers. UAL? Just got contracts with their feeders.

Do you really believe that the highly paid flight attendants are what's killing the bottom line. Look again. I am not even sure if we are the highest in the industry any more. If we are its by how much? 3%? If that's the make it or break it number. Its far to late to save AA.
 

Vikedog64

Senior
Jan 29, 2003
256
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Mikey.. You better get your head out of the sand. Denial about AMR's situation and blasting DAL's attempt to recapture market share only confirms peoples belief that things will only get worse. At this point it doesn't matter who is bleeding worse..we all are!
 

DLFlyer31

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
444
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[blockquote]
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On 1/29/2003 1:35:52 PM TWAFA007 wrote:

Its a fact that UAL has a better route system.

ALOHA, 007

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[/blockquote]

I'd love to see where this fact is proven.

In my experience the two are about equal. UA is clearly better to Asia. AA is clearly better to Central America/South America and the Caribbean. In terms of Europe, they're both about the same though in the future I expect AA to expand more in Europe.

Domestically, AA is the stronger one in the Northeast and Mid-South region. UA is stronger on the West Coast and Rocky Mountain region. In the mid-west, AA has a slight advantage. In the South, neither carrier is much of a player.

So now, where exactly do you get this proven fact of UA having the better network?