Hi Bob Owens!

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Aug 20, 2002
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Question:
Hi Bob! Heard you went fishing last weekend. Did you catch anything?

Answer:

Well,Lets reverse roles for a moment. Suppose you guys were represented by AMFA and you just found that many jobs were being sacrificed for the good of the brotherhood. This doesn''t sit well with you, as you have been a dues paying member for years and cannot believe that the union didn''t fight any harder for all employees...after all, strength in numbers you know. Meanwhile, a rather vocal coworker kept complaining about AMFA and was spreading the word that TWU was the way to go. His complaints have piqued your interest - do you accept his word as facts, and blindly follow, or do you do a little digging on your own to see the entire view of the TWU? And if in your digging, you find that things over at ABC airlines (who is represented by TWU) are not that much better than they are at XYZ airlines - when you see that the members at MNO airlines (a smaller airline represented by the same union) got an increase thru arbitration that was LESS than management origianlly offered, because the union leadership was going to stand as one against a sh*tty offer, then maybe you start to think that just maybe the things that are being spouted by this vocal organizer are not really as good as he''d like you to believe. But when he posts anything he finds that is the least bit negative, he is a liar or uninformed.One of the suggestions I forwarded to Jim Little months ago was a job sharing program similar to that used by trades here in NY. Instead of just throwing out the Junior guys all workers would take the hit in the form of a layoff. The workers would pick the period in which they wanted to be laid off by seniority.They dont accept pay cutsto keep people working. The concept of keeping as many people producing as possible is the responsibility of the government, not unions. Companies use the arguement of lower wages as a means to full employment not unions. Following this logic of less pay for more jobs then why do unions support raising the minimum wage? Everyone would have a lower yearly income but they would also collect unemployment and have the opportunity to sell their labor somewhere else until they are called back. This would allow those who were on layoff to potentially offset their losses while still working the same amount of hours. We will now in effect be working from October till December for free.Isnt the whole idea to work less hours for more pay so you can have more time to have a life outside of work?Instead we agreed to lowering everyones yearly income by more than 20% while increasing the amount of hours worked in that year, and we are still putting Junior workers on the street.
 
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On 8/3/2003 9:48:33 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Dont know where you heard that, havent gone fishing in years.


One question. Should we be able to vote for who we want to control our contract? Do we get to vote for Jim Little?

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Has there ever been any one who stood a chance to run against Delle? Maybe with the rather large numbers at UAL's overhaul there may be a chance for a creditable candidates, who can campaign in at least one location. How many AMFA members can run all over the country to campaign and glad hand for votes?

How did Jim Little get into the position he has? Appointment?
 
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On 8/3/2003 9:53:12 PM j7915 wrote:

Has there ever been any one who stood a chance to run against Delle? Maybe with the rather large numbers at UAL's overhaul there may be a chance for a creditable candidates, who can campaign in at least one location. How many AMFA members can run all over the country to campaign and glad hand for votes?

How did Jim Little get into the position he has? Appointment?


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I can assure you that if Delle signed a contract in the industry "without further ratification", like Jim Little just did, then even you would stand a chance against Delle in an election.
That is if he didn't get recalled before you had the chance to run against him.
What happens to Dispatcher Jim when his own craft or class leaves the TWU?
 
I can assure you that Delle is not representing the mechanic and related of the TWU at American Airlines, yet.

Oh yes I almost forgot the Topic: Hi Bob?

Is that what we are susposed to do? Say hi to Bob?
 
Question: Hi Bob! How's the family doing?

Answer:

Well,Lets reverse roles for a moment. Suppose you guys were represented by AMFA and you just found that many jobs were being sacrificed for the good of the brotherhood. This doesn't sit well with you, as you have been a dues paying member for years and cannot believe that the union didn't fight any harder for all employees...after all, strength in numbers you know. Meanwhile, a rather vocal coworker kept complaining about AMFA and was spreading the word that TWU was the way to go. His complaints have piqued your interest - do you accept his word as "facts", and blindly follow, or do you do a little digging on your own to see the entire view of the TWU? And if in your digging, you find that things over at ABC airlines (who is represented by TWU) are not that much better than they are at XYZ airlines - when you see that the members at MNO airlines (a smaller airline represented by the same union) got an increase thru arbitration that was LESS than management origianlly offered, because the union leadership was going to stand as one against a sh*tty offer, then maybe you start to think that just maybe the things that are being spouted by this vocal organizer are not really as good as he'd like you to believe. But when he posts anything he finds that is the least bit negative, he is a "liar" or "uninformed".One of the suggestions I forwarded to Jim Little months ago was a job sharing program similar to that used by trades here in NY. Instead of just throwing out the Junior guys all workers would take the hit in the form of a layoff. The workers would pick the period in which they wanted to be laid off by seniority.They dont accept pay cuts"to keep people working". The concept of keeping as many people producing as possible is the responsibility of the government, not unions. Companies use the arguement of lower wages as a means to full employment not unions. Following this logic of less pay for more jobs then why do unions support raising the minimum wage? Everyone would have a lower yearly income but they would also collect unemployment and have the opportunity to sell their labor somewhere else until they are called back. This would allow those who were on layoff to potentially offset their losses while still working the same amount of hours. We will now in effect be working from October till December for free.Isnt the whole idea to work less hours for more pay so you can have more time to have a life outside of work?Instead we agreed to lowering everyones yearly income by more than 20% while increasing the amount of hours worked in that year, and we are still putting Junior workers on the street.
 
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On 8/3/2003 9:57:48 PM RV4 wrote:






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On 8/3/2003 9:53:12 PM j7915 wrote:


Has there ever been any one who stood a chance to run against Delle? Maybe with the rather large numbers at UAL's overhaul there may be a chance for a creditable candidates, who can campaign in at least one location. How many AMFA members can run all over the country to campaign and glad hand for votes?


How did Jim Little get into the position he has? Appointment?



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I can assure you that if Delle signed a contract in the industry "without further ratification", like Jim Little just did, then even you would stand a chance against Delle in an election.

 That is if he didn't get recalled before you had the chance to run against him.

 What happens to Dispatcher Jim when his own craft or class leaves the TWU?

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Sounds like AMFA functions like the state of California, when the members don't like something they will blindly vote for a new name, without knowing anything about him.

That is just what I have been saying is a weakness in the concept of system-wide elections for national union candidates. Most of the members have never been around these candidates. Look at the IBT, they hold "national" elections and have the worst reputation for corruption of any of the unions in or out of the AFL-CIO. I say that that is because the candidates have to become known and politic on extreme platforms so they will draw the attention of members who will never even get to see them.

Indirect elections means that the member's representatives will have had opportunity to work with the candidates during union business conferences etc. Sort of like the states electing the US Senators, in the past, the legislators had a chance to know the candidates where as most of the voters never did.

How is it going to play out when the overhaul base at NWA or UAL with a large voter base and the opportunity to get to know the candidate elect Delle's replacement? Will the line stations then try to do an inverse "roll-call" vote because they can't have the decisive vote anymore? Each local or station gets an equal number of electoral college votes? Sort of like they share expenses at NWA, MSP gets to foot the bills based on members, but only gets one vote because they are only one local?

It is curious that you say "even I' could get elected to Delle's position, and you have no clue who I am. Yet when I suggest an approach to a rather serious problem, based on the precedent of the US Constitution no less, it is ignored.
 

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On 8/4/2003 10:30:18 AM j7915 wrote:

Sounds like AMFA functions like the state of California,
In other words like a Democracy?
when the members don't like something they will blindly vote for a new name, without knowing anything about him.
Going for the known is the more natural reaction, if people are that upset that they would go for the unknown its because the known has proven to be extremely unacceptable.

That is just what I have been saying is a weakness in the concept of system-wide elections for national union candidates.
You are contradicting your earlier post where you complained that no one could challenge Delle. AMFA has Democracy yet it still has stability. However that stability is conditional on the fact that the organization meets the needs of its members, the members have accountability and so far the fear of instability has not materialized. Your position here sounds similar to those who do not believe in Democracy, those that believe that a paternalistic authoritarian society better serves its people than a democracy.
Most of the members have never been around these candidates. Look at the IBT, they hold "national" elections and have the worst reputation for corruption of any of the unions in or out of the AFL-CIO. I say that that is because the candidates have to become known and politic on extreme platforms so they will draw the attention of members who will never even get to see them.
While there are drawbacks to national elections, especially the fact that challengers are at a disadvantage, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. National elections provide accountability and give the members the opportunity for real participation. We had one poster who was supporting Jim Little who did not even know who Kerrigan or Bakala were! Im sure that the obliviousness was mutual.

Indirect elections means that the member's representatives will have had opportunity to work with the candidates during union business conferences etc.
Its more like the opportunity for the incumbant to work on the delegates.
Sort of like the states electing the US Senators, in the past, the legislators had a chance to know the candidates where as most of the voters never did.
Well not really, more like Congressmen since the number of delegates is determined by membership. One critical difference is that members are not provided any accountability. For all they know the delegate could have spent the entire Convention at the craps table. There should be electronic balloting at the Convention like the postal workers and as I just saw on TV the Episcapal church have at their conventions. Members should have access to the delegates voting record at the convention.

How is it going to play out when the overhaul base at NWA or UAL with a large voter base and the opportunity to get to know the candidate elect Delle's replacement? Will the line stations then try to do an inverse "roll-call" vote because they can't have the decisive vote anymore? Each local or station gets an equal number of electoral college votes? Sort of like they share expenses at NWA, MSP gets to foot the bills based on members, but only gets one vote because they are only one local?
There should be no roll call. Instead of a roll call a 25% vote of any council meeting should force an issue to a membership vote. This would protect the rights of the larger locals without making it so that smaller locals have no voice. It would encourage real comprimise instead of back room dealmaking where one Local sits there as King and the others are designated to the status of noisy observers.



It is curious that you say "even I' could get elected to Delle's position, and you have no clue who I am.
Well isnt that what you said? That people could vote for someone they dont know anything about? Ever hear of third party candidates? The fact is that in just about every election there is the possibility that people can vote for people they know nothing about. That's democracy.
Yet when I suggest an approach to a rather serious problem, based on the precedent of the US Constitution no less, it is ignored.


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On 8/3/2003 9:53:12 PM j7915 wrote:


Has there ever been any one who stood a chance to run against Delle? Maybe with the rather large numbers at UAL's overhaul there may be a chance for a creditable candidates, who can campaign in at least one location. How many AMFA members can run all over the country to campaign and glad hand for votes?

How did Jim Little get into the position he has? Appointment?


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Jim Little was elected to the position of VP-unopposed I believe and appointed to be the head of the ATD. He has control over our contracts and there is no mechanism for the members that are under his thumb to remove him without removing the entire organization. He is accountable to Sonny Hall alone, who, by his own admission knows little about what goes on in the ATD. I guess that the only thing that is of concern to Sonny is the ever increasing flow of dues that come from the ATD dispite the fact that Jim Little has pushed through the most concessionary contract in history. No other union in this industry has given up more than the TWU. Jim Little has got to go. He should have to work under the conditions that he put in place, however it looks like the only place that he could return to will soon be the bagroom. Now wouldnt that be justice?
 
I hate to say it, but Jim Little will go one day. RIGHT INTO SONNY HALL'S SEAT WHEN HE RETIRES! Once Bobby Gless is optimumly brainwashed, er, I mean groomed, he will be Little's replacement!
 
I think LaBradford22 is the only one to post that understood my little ruse!
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On 8/5/2003 6:27:25 AM Hopeful wrote:

I hate to say it, but Jim Little will go one day. RIGHT INTO SONNY HALL'S SEAT WHEN HE RETIRES! Once Bobby Gless is optimumly brainwashed, er, I mean groomed, he will be Little's replacement!

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IMHO Mike O'Brien is next once Sonny retires. Maybe Little will get Kerrigans seat or IEVP until the next Convention.
Gless will not replace Little, my bet is Conley.
 
With the purported filing with the NMB by the TWU Dispatchers, I see "little" chance that jimmy will move up unless he resigns his position with the company...it would be more than a "little" mistake if jimmy were allowed dual union membership when others were placed in bad standing for the same thing.
 
Stanley Aronowitz wrote in his book that for many union officials the worst thing that could happen to them is to have to return to work under the conditions they negotiated. I would imagine this to be true in Littles case. Couldnt you hear him whine about working weekends, shifts, holidays for less than half of what he is earning now? I have no doubt that he would quit AA if the dispatchers leave. Having to work under the conditions that he put in place, that he told others to accept would likely be unacceptable to him.
 
Question----Bob, that is a nice boat that you have! is the engine a Mercury or an Evenrude?

Answer:
Will you ever get your act together? By "the International" do you mean the TWU or AMFA? It is my understanding that AMFAs administrative body is the National, not International.Lets look at the rights of union members in the AA TWU/ATD. The contract is between the "International" and the company. Therefore jurisdiction over the contract is with the International including negotiations and Interpretation.The members do not have the right to choose those that do the real negotiating and interpretation of the contract since these are positions that are appointed by Sonny Hall..The members do not have the right to vote on changes to the contract despite what the Constitution says because Sonny Hall is allowed to interpret the Constitution as he sees fit.The members do not even have the right to choose their own local leaders. So while members can not remove either Local or International officers the International can remove elected officers when ever they choose. Obviously all the power is at the top and not with the members. If the members put in officers that want change the International simply removes them.What power do the members have beyond the power of being on or off check-off?
"Amfa is not ony an Aviation Technician Union as they have preached in the past! They are now Representing Flight Attendants and are currently working to organizing Fleet Service Clerks.Do you mean they are trying to get all airline workers into one union? So that no matter where you go you will be in the same union? So the next time we are faced with threats of government action, bankruptcy and other concerted efforts by the airlines, financial community and the government to lower our wages they will face a giant unified group of workers that have it in their power to literally stop all air transportation? Gee what's wrong with that? What is your strategy, stay split up and continue to make Sonny Hall rich and try to get into that $200,000/yr spot yourself? What about the rest of us?
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