How much is enough money to make seniority woes fade?

Phoenix

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Apr 16, 2003
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If USAir ALPA would use these rates as an opener....then how many would accept recall, and the seniority list as it is?

initial rates plus 3 years down the road.

737 CA 12 yr rate $210/hr --- End of Contract $241/hr

767 CA 12 yr rate $227/hr ---- End of contract $261/hr

777 CA 12 yr rate $260/hr --- End of Contract $299/hr

737 FO 12 yr rate $142/hr --- End of Contract $163/hr

767 FO 12 yr rate $153/hr --- End of Contract $176/hr

777 FO 12 yr rate $176/hr ---- End of Contract $202/hr


Read the above rates are what APA is using.
 
Well, there would still be wailing and gnashing of teeth on the east side, but a tubfull of sugar like that would certainly make the medicine go down a bit easier.

The F/O rates for AA pilots proposed by APA are already in excess of what most east captains are making now, and equivalent to the present west captain rates.
 
As usual, ALPA has already limited their bargaining ability by making stupid public statements and tempering the opening offer with 'industry averages'.
Consider these items:

AWA ALPA MEC Hotline - May 4, 2007

"I do not expect to achieve SWA contract wages."

"I know that most of our pilots are reasonable and will define this as better than the expected offer of west book plus three to five percent but less than SWA."

Captain John McIlvenna
Chairman, AWA Master Executive Council

Who is this BOZO? And why is he negotiating in an open communication?
Labor Relations 101, Chapter on Negotiations, says to open high, then compromise. DUH.
Here is a good example...

American Pilots (APA) Opener

initial rates plus 3 years down the road.

737 CA 12 yr rate $210/hr --- End of Contract $241/hr

767 CA 12 yr rate $227/hr ---- End of contract $261/hr

777 CA 12 yr rate $260/hr --- End of Contract $299/hr

737 FO 12 yr rate $142/hr --- End of Contract $163/hr

767 FO 12 yr rate $153/hr --- End of Contract $176/hr

777 FO 12 yr rate $176/hr ---- End of Contract $202/hr

The APA will define the new industry leading pay rates. What has ALPA's recent history shown? The APA guys KNOW their skills are worth more than the 'average' and their union is actually working to BETTER their life.
ALPA once again has screwed the pooch. What a sorry organization.
Anyone who votes for one penny less than what the sorry NC opened with is a fool. It is a bargain, and Doogie & Scooter know it.
Remember "Share the Pain"? OK, now let's "Share the Gains!"
 
You can't simply buy your way out of this one. There won't be enough money left in the till to buy pretzels! From my perspective, I would need some serious job protection. Seems a bit unsettling to know that after 18 years with this company that I will be furloughed ahead of pilots whom have been here a mere 2 years. What's the going pay rate for that triad off?

I will also need to receive Captains pay on at least group 2 aircraft. Due to the fact that the aforementioned two year guy will be occupying the Captain seat long before I will.

I will also require a lot more vacation and sick time. Because pulling junior reserve for that two year guy in my 50s will most surely wear me down-especially while commuting to my displaced domicile.

Nope, you will never have the peace that your post suggest you seek in this merger. Unless, Nicolau's decision gets thrown out....then we can explore what might work.
 
Nope, you will never have the peace that your post suggest you seek in this merger. Unless, Nicolau's decision gets thrown out....then we can explore what might work.

Getting Nicolau's decision "thrown out" is definitely not going to bring peace either......
 
Nor is it possible that it will be thrown out.

Nor is it possible to merge two utterly divergent labor groups together with this much open sky between them, especially when the "losers" are in the majority. How about the fences idea?
 
Nor is it possible to merge two utterly divergent labor groups together with this much open sky between them, especially when the "losers" are in the majority. How about the fences idea?
I don't know yet about the fences idea. It just makes me real skeptical to deal with a group who wanted no part in negotiations and mediation and now all of the sudden when the ruling is out they are willing to sit at a table and find common ground. There is a lack of trust there and believe me, it does not change the fact that I would rather stand as one collective labor group helping each other get a solid and lucrative contract. It also doesn't help to have the proverbial gun held against my head when some decide to use the tact of "negotiate or we'll try and decertify your union and/or burn this place down". That type of mob mentality actually encourages me to take a stand against joint compromise. Until emotions on both side are taken down a few notches then this conflict will remain the biggest impediment to a strong and unified pilot group.

Blue skies....
 
I don't know yet about the fences idea. It just makes me real skeptical to deal with a group who wanted no part in negotiations and mediation and now all of the sudden when the ruling is out they are willing to sit at a table and find common ground. There is a lack of trust there and believe me, it does not change the fact that I would rather stand as one collective labor group helping each other get a solid and lucrative contract. It also doesn't help to have the proverbial gun held against my head when some decide to use the tact of "negotiate or we'll try and decertify your union and/or burn this place down". That type of mob mentality actually encourages me to take a stand against joint compromise. Until emotions on both side are taken down a few notches then this conflict will remain the biggest impediment to a strong and unified pilot group.

Blue skies....

Well said. Even with me being an easty ready to burn this dump down.
 
I just wonder, if the decision had gone DOH (longevity, whatever), how many of these East pilots now so willing to negotiate would be saying something different about the idea of long-term fences and splitting new flying/equipment. I definitely know one that would be as adamant about the binding nature of the award as he now is about "let's negotiate", and I suspect he'd have a lot of company.....

Jim
 
I just wonder, if the decision had gone DOH (longevity, whatever), how many of these East pilots now so willing to negotiate would be saying something different about the idea of long-term fences and splitting new flying/equipment. I definitely know one that would be as adamant about the binding nature of the award as he now is about "let's negotiate", and I suspect he'd have a lot of company.....

Jim

How about walking a mile in the effected pilots shoes. You seem to be walking a mile on the pilots.
 
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, wore out many pairs of shoes. Any questions....

Jim

Your previous comments on other subjects were more calm and considerate to the parties involved. Your comments on the pilot seniority issues seems to show your less articulate side. Disdain?


Jim's not ridiculing; he's just calling a spade a spade.

Jim do you need his help?