How much you wanna bet?

RV4

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[blockquote]
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On 3/12/2003 7:50:23 AM Hopeful wrote:

How much you wanna bet that after we are forced into concessions that either; a) we still go bankrupt and get raped further, or B) with the excuse of war we get raped further?
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How are we going to be "forced" into concessions without the Judge in the first place?
 

Hopeful

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How much you wanna bet that after we are forced into concessions that either; a) we still go bankrupt and get raped further, or B) with the excuse of war we get raped further?
 
OP
R

RV4

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Just boycott any informational meetings and do not read any mailed propaganda except the ballot. Plus maybe we should both cease copying and pasting the TWU web data into this board?

What you appear to be saying is that our co-workers are incapable of thinking for themselves. If this is the case, AMFA will not help us, because accountability and free thinking is encouraged.
 

Buck

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What we are going to end up with is whatever produces the goal the company is looking for and for those affiliated with the AFL-CIO, the largest number of dues payers.
 

Hopeful

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That's not what I'm saying. But listen to what the F/A union said about bankruptcy. Look at what the pilots said about bankruptcy. It seems that the union leadership of all three unions is conveying the gloom and doom scenario that the company spews out. Keep in mind that there are members and employees in general who are scared as hell about losing their jobs and will subscribe to the fear factor.
 

Hopeful

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WxGuesser: I think you missed my point. Of course people are worried about their jobs, but to be scared by the union leadership into accepting unacceptable concessions is totally unacceptable!
 

WXGuesser

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[blockquote]
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On 3/12/2003 8:32:46 AM Hopeful wrote:

Keep in mind that there are members and employees in general who are scared as hell about losing their jobs and will subscribe to the fear factor.
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Gee, and I can't think of ANY reason why employees would be in fear of losing their jobs, can you?

How much do I want to bet the employees will get screwed anyway? Nothing! It's a sucker bet; of course we are going to get hacked on hard. But you know, on the slim-to-none chance these concessions might be able to save the company long enough for things to start the turnaround, I'm willing to take that chance. I want there to be an American Airlines to come back to work for someday.

But that's just my perspective...

TANSTAAFL!
 

410OhOne

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[blockquote]
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On 3/12/2003 9:16:58 AM WXGuesser wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 3/12/2003 8:32:46 AM Hopeful wrote:

Keep in mind that there are members and employees in general who are scared as hell about losing their jobs and will subscribe to the fear factor.
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[/blockquote]

Gee, and I can't think of ANY reason why employees would be in fear of losing their jobs, can you?

How much do I want to bet the employees will get screwed anyway? Nothing! It's a sucker bet; of course we are going to get hacked on hard. But you know, on the slim-to-none chance these concessions might be able to save the company long enough for things to start the turnaround, I'm willing to take that chance. I want there to be an American Airlines to come back to work for someday.

But that's just my perspective...

TANSTAAFL!

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Here is an example of sheep.

Kinda reminds me of my first fish I reeled in. "Easy son, just reel him in slow, not to fast now, dont want to break the hook, this one isnt fighting, but his weight can break the line".
Dad
 

WingNaPrayer

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It's not just the union jobs. AA has a lot of non-union positions, and those wages they can slash as much as they want with almost no notice whatsoever - no waiting for Union bickering to be done with. I fear in the long run, it's going to be the non-union positions that are going to take the hardest hit.

Unfortunately, this industry isn't any different labor wise than any other...you slash wages and you'll get what you pay for or...don't want to pay for. You can't expect an employee that you were paying say 20 bucks an hour to, to perform equally as well when you tell him/her well, keep breaking your back for us but we're only going to pay you 10 bucks an hour now.

Wage concessions will destroy morale, and will destroy employee/customer relations. May as well just sell the farm.

Minimum wage - minimum output.
 

WXGuesser

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[blockquote]
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On 3/12/2003 9:33:48 AM 410OhOne wrote:


Here is an example of sheep.

Kinda reminds me of my first fish I reeled in. "Easy son, just reel him in slow, not to fast now, dont want to break the hook, this one isnt fighting, but his weight can break the line".
Dad


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410OhOne:

FYI, I'm a *furloughed* employee already. I know what it is like to get the boot already.

I hate to be blunt, but do you folks know what it is like out here? Out in the non-union world? It'sa Fugly anda gettin' Fuglier! I'm not slurping up either the union's or the company's kool-aid. I'm looking at it purely from my own perspective. If somebody wants to leave, I will gladly come back at the cut rate. Why? Because it would be a job in my field, using my college degree that is presently little more than wall decorations that I am paying back payments on every month and will do so for the next oh-so-many years. And it would be a job that is paying me more than I am currently making at the job I took to keep food on the table and a roof over my head.

I am not trying to tell anyone else what to do. I'm just disagreeing with what Hopeful has said and saying what I would do. Sorry for being so selfish!

Hopeful:

I did catch your point, but, respectfully, I think people are being scared by a lot more than just the union propaganda.

Buck:

You hit the nail on the head.

TANSTAAFL!
 

WXGuesser

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[blockquote]
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On 3/12/2003 11:06:58 AM 410OhOne wrote:

WXGuesser,

Well Said and Good Luck. Rather than take someones position who would gladly give it up, wouldn't you rather have taken someones job who doesnt belong there, ie. the trash who slipped through probation due to union and company ignorance. I started a thread awhile back about a merit point system deciding who stays and who goes. Seniority alone just doesnt work. What do you think? I am thinking about pushing for it on a national level. To get something like this through will take extraordinary communication, and I think we can achieve this on a personal level. The unions have proved that they can't communicate effectively to their paying membership. A little effort on the junior, the future, the youth of this airline can go a long way.
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410OhOne:

I do recall reading your merit-point program post, but I do not agree with you that it would work. Why? Because your program assumes an impartial point-assigner. Unless you are going to give this job to some sort of computer or robot, it isn't going to work, because it involves a human giving points. There is not such thing as an impartial human being. Every human being operates from some sort of a position of self-interest, even if it is enlightened self-interest in cases. And, once you get humans together in a group larger than two, politics of some sort come into play (hierarchies develop, positions of leadership and submission, etc.) And as soon as politics come into play, any merit-based system, no matter how well-crafted will be compromised, if not destroyed.

Example: Say you have a point-assigner who likes bass fishing. That person is going to be (either consciously or unconsciously) more likely to give more favorable ratings to those employees of his that they know like bass fishing, and who talk bass fishing with him than those who think it is barbaric and silly, or even those who don't care one way or the other. Why? Humans are xenophobic by nature; they prefer the company of those who look/act/think like they do.

Seniority tends to be a great lever against politics; it makes it impartial. Yes, incompetence can slip through the system. But if you want to prevent that, IMHO, improve the probationary screening process. And, I also know in my particular aspect of the airline biz, seniority=experience=being able to do the job better, almost as an absolute. I know that is not the case in all areas, so I can understand some people's frustration.

I would much prefer to return under circumstances where someone has left for a better job, or has decided to retire. But if someone leaves because they feel the pay/bennies are not sufficient for them, I will gladly take that job. It is their choice...

TANSTAAFL.
 

410OhOne

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WXGuesser,

Well Said and Good Luck. Rather than take someones position who would gladly give it up, wouldn't you rather have taken someones job who doesnt belong there, ie. the trash who slipped through probation due to union and company ignorance. I started a thread awhile back about a merit point system deciding who stays and who goes. Seniority alone just doesnt work. What do you think? I am thinking about pushing for it on a national level. To get something like this through will take extraordinary communication, and I think we can achieve this on a personal level. The unions have proved that they can't communicate effectively to their paying membership. A little effort on the junior, the future, the youth of this airline can go a long way.
 

AAmech

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Aug 22, 2002
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OK RV, Just disregard everthing management is saying. Instead read what Merrell Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Standard and Poors, the Allied Pilots Assn, and the APFA have said about AA's economic condition. I mean you can't really thing our Pilot's Union is conspiring with management to pull a fast one can you? The situation SUCKS and its getting worse! No one likes it, but thats the way it is and we need to do SOMETHING NOW before we run out of time!
 
OP
R

RV4

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[blockquote]
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On 3/12/2003 5:45:11 PM AAmech wrote:

OK RV, Just disregard everthing management is saying. Instead read what Merrell Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Standard and Poors, the Allied Pilots Assn, and the APFA have said about AA's economic condition. I mean you can't really thing our Pilot's Union is conspiring with management to pull a fast one can you? The situation SUCKS and its getting worse! No one likes it, but thats the way it is and we need to do SOMETHING NOW before we run out of time!
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I can assure you that the APA wants to keep their pensions and more importantly their "lump sum" option that you and I lost years ago, which requires huge funding of the plan.

And yes, I believe dishing out fear is in their cards to protect their own interest. They want us to agree to give more first, so they can keep more later. It is a planned event that the TWU is leading the way down towards the intersection of concession blvd. and snake bite avenue.

Same reason the Pilots fear Mandatory Arbitration more than most. They cannot successfully argue in front of a Judge or an Arbitrator to keep what they have. On the other hand, I believe the mechanics could justify their position, in fact was just done by AMFA in front of a Republican Presidential Emergency Board.