how scared is AA? Well they are changing the raises now

FA Mikey

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Aug 19, 2002
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AA realizes now that there is little chance of passage. They have decided to sweeten the pot. Well, not really. They are offering a 4.5% wage increase for all the work groups starting in 06. The financial trigger will be AA''s credit rating returning to what it was prior to 9/11. Like that will happen, safe for them and will fool a few people.

How scared are they? Pretty scared to resort to this only days before the voting closes.
 

FA Mikey

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The APFA National Officers, along with the leaders of the Allied Pilots Association (APA) and the Transport Workers Union (TWU) met with American CEO Don Carty last week to express to Carty and other members of senior management their concerns over two aspects of the tentative Restructuring Proposals now out for ratification: the 6-year duration and the 1.5% pay increases in the out years.

The union leaders were unanimous in their belief that unless management did something more in the area of "upsides" that the agreements were likely to fail. Management did respond back with a proposal that would provide for the possibility of an annual wage arbitration beginning in 2006. This Variable Wage Adjustment Provision would allow for an arbitrator, pursuant to a number of criteria established by the Company, to award a wage adjustment of up to 4.5% so long as that amount would not cause the Company''s unit labor costs for each represented group to exceed the unit labor cost of the six largest domestic passenger carriers.

Any award would not become a part of the base rate and would be paid in 12 equal monthly installments following the award.

In a nutshell, this "empty bag" was not met with the greatest of enthusiasm by the Unions. Although all three Unions have attempted to engage the Company in further serious negotiations on this issue, the Company responded with a "take it or leave it". The press has reported that the TWU has accepted this offer. The APFA and APA are currently still analyzing the situation and have not yet responded to Management. The APFA Board of Directors will meet via conference call tomorrow, Thursday, April 10 to discuss this issue. Please continue to call this hotline and visit the APFA web site as additional information will be provided as it becomes available.
 

rduaa

Newbie
Apr 9, 2003
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On 4/9/2003 11:42:33 PM FA Mikey wrote:

The APFA National Officers, along with the leaders of the Allied Pilots Association (APA) and the Transport Workers Union (TWU) met with American CEO Don Carty last week to express to Carty and other members of senior management their concerns over two aspects of the tentative Restructuring Proposals now out for ratification: the 6-year duration and the 1.5% pay increases in the out years.

The union leaders were unanimous in their belief that unless management did something more in the area of "upsides" that the agreements were likely to fail. Management did respond back with a proposal that would provide for the possibility of an annual wage arbitration beginning in 2006. This Variable Wage Adjustment Provision would allow for an arbitrator, pursuant to a number of criteria established by the Company, to award a wage adjustment of up to 4.5% so long as that amount would not cause the Company''s unit labor costs for each represented group to exceed the unit labor cost of the six largest domestic passenger carriers.

Any award would not become a part of the base rate and would be paid in 12 equal monthly installments following the award.

In a nutshell, this "empty bag" was not met with the greatest of enthusiasm by the Unions. Although all three Unions have attempted to engage the Company in further serious negotiations on this issue, the Company responded with a "take it or leave it". The press has reported that the TWU has accepted this offer. The APFA and APA are currently still analyzing the situation and have not yet responded to Management. The APFA Board of Directors will meet via conference call tomorrow, Thursday, April 10 to discuss this issue. Please continue to call this hotline and visit the APFA web site as additional information will be provided as it becomes available.


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Not sure I would call it an empty bag. The empty bag is folks who still think they will get a better deal in BK. Let''s see what UA FAs got in BK.

Wages - 9% wage cut, but they already make 6% less than AA f/As so the wage cut is equal to AA at best.
No pay raise until the year 2007, then 2% until 2009. AA offered 1/5 % starting in 2004

Medical benefits - Escalation of their medical premiums. They will pay 10% of the company insurance premium this year and it jumps two percent each year until it hits 20%. Same with dental. AA F/A medical doubled current payroll deduction to cover premium.

Retirement - UA retirement caps retirement years of service at 35 years. AA left retirement alone

VC - United will no longer pay overlap for VC trip this year. 2004 - 2.8 hours per day for each VC day. Instead of ending up with 20 hours for a three day trip on your VC, it would be worth around 9 hrs. AA reduced amount of VC

Work rigs - increase maximums into the 90 hr range. And everybody''s favorite - UA will institute preferential bidding. You know, preferential bidding, the item that sent AA flight Attendants on strike in ''93

If you thonk that is a better deal out of BK, I''d hate to see what you think is worse/

RDU
 
Aug 20, 2002
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OH, (by the way);
I can''t confirm this
BUT,
I was told from an excellent source, that CRANDALL WAS recently on CNBC, and stated that Carty was approaching this from the wrong direction, AND that he(carty) should DOWNSIZE the airline, a go from there.

(Jeez, there is nothing like making statements when you''ve GOT "PROVEN HISTORY" TO APPLY TO YOUR CREDIBILITY) !!!!!!!!

NH/BB''s
 

rduaa

Newbie
Apr 9, 2003
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Well at least your weak sister union will take a stand. John Ward of the APFA is just concerned about his own political future. Don''t stand too close to the concessions , John, someone might think you had something to do with them. Don''t stand too close to BK, John, your fellow union leaders might hold you responsible losing the pilots pension and sending thousands more then necessary onto the street. It''s not about living to fight another day with APFA, it about playing a game with other peoples lives and getting off on moral superiority
 
Aug 20, 2002
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Just so there''s no question about where I''m "coming from", I HAVE ALWAYS favored(during these difficult times)"DOWNSIZING" the airline, just like (uncle) BOBBY did in the late 70''s/early 80''s.

Now if ANYBODY cares to define that as "I got mine", so be it !!!!!!

When any union is faced with the 2 toughest choices possible
1. keep as many working as possible,
OR,
2. Seniority rules,
they obligated to choose SENIORITY. Because NOTHING can EVER "trump" seniority.
Now I''m not stupid enough to think that my (weak sister) TWU won''t opt for #1 (more $$ dues).

I keep reading here "live to fight again, at a later time", OVER and OVER, and OVER again.
Guess what?
I agree. But you NEVER "cave in to extortion", from these dirty bastards. NEVER!!!!
You take your($$) Ass kicking FROM A BK JUDGE, because you have NO choice(AT THAT PARTICULIAR POINT IN TIME), then you bide your time until AA leaves the protection of the courts, gets healthy from
A. a rising stock market
B. a war that''s winding down
and,
C. A codeshare with BA, thats right around the corner,(AND THEY WILL GET HEALTHY, AND "THEY KNOW IT", PROBLEM IS, TOO MANY OF US "CAN"T" SEE IT ),

AND THEN,
You politely say, "EXCUSE ME, AA, REMEMBER ME" ??,
While you nail there ass''s to the wall in future contracts.
IMHO, that way, you can look in the mirror, and not barf at what stare/ing back at you.
I took a sworn oath to abide by the "mechanics" of SENIORITY RULES.
NO woman or man, who is senior to me should IN ANY WAY, be impacted by my being kept working.
Likewise,
I should not be impacted in any way, to keep anyone junior to me, working. I DEFY ANYONE to tell me that, that system is not FAIR. "ANY TAKERS" ????? GO AHEAD, TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT !!!!!!!!!!!!

DOWNSIZE/SENIORITY RULES
It was good enough for CRANDALL, it''s DEFINITELY good enough for 2 "clowns" like CARTY and ARPEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB''s
 

Hopeful

Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
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Let''s get one thing straight. The TWU did not take this tough stance. They brought this crap back to the membership. The MEMBERSHIP conveyed to the TWU leadership that they are not happy.
 

flydcoop

Senior
Dec 3, 2002
281
0
St. Louis
Hmm, Mikey,

VERY interesting. Glad I''m waiting to vote until the 13/14.

Must be a lot of "No" votes that my "yes" vote cannot possibly affect.

That changes many things, doesn''t it?

So, all AA Corporate spies, I''m waiting and swinging...how about 3 years, not 6?

I was 90% Yes, still reading the 4M. What do you think?

The 4M (if you can actually get on it) is quite convincing.

If it''s about arrogance and not saving this company, guess what my vote is?
 

FA Mikey

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I dont think we will do better in front of a BK judge. Our only hope is that AA will be forced to negotiate in good faith with its employees and not impose on them what they tried to do in this round. The BK will look at both sides if one does not negotiate in good faith. They will not get there little wish list. I cannot even begin to describe how disgusted I am at the treatment my negotiators received. Keep in mind, I am no fan of our team itself.

AA dictated terms and conditions. They forced issues and gutted 50 years of negotiated work rules.

I am willing to take my share of the lumps for the survival of the company. But not like this, not on these terms.

We have on the table no less than 420 million. AA has disguised as 340 million.

How worried are? Well, enough that 5 days before voting closes they are trying make it look better. There will not be a 4.5% increase. Because AA will not achieve it perfect credit rating before the end of the decade. even if they could its not even an actual raise. It won''t be added to your yearly total. Its the carrot on the stick thing. Problem is our carrot is sitting 5 feet over the edge of a cliff.
 

DLFlyer31

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
444
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On 4/10/2003 12:57:45 AM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:
When any union is faced with the 2 toughest choices possible
1. keep as many working as possible,
OR,
2. Seniority rules,
they obligated to choose SENIORITY. Because NOTHING can EVER "trump" seniority.
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Statements like this make it clear why union membership has declined in the United States. It''s pure greed and nothing more. Eat your young and let the senior employees stay fat, dumb and happy. How are you any better than the greedy CEO''s who take raises while laying employee''s off?
 

skivoodoo

Member
Sep 7, 2002
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F/A Mikey,

I can''t explain how pleased I am that you have seen the light! APFA needs to be prepearing NOW for BK. They need to have loads of information to prove the PROPER CREDIT for these concessions! Maybe, just maybe, we can get unlimited recall rights as a no cost item. We know that there will be many furloughs above and beyond what has been stated so far.
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
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The absolut most important thing is to vote. Because every vote does count. The leadership need to know where the membership stands.

My take now is we will be in BK by months end, agreements or not. These TA''s if ratified are a way to lower the bar before we negoiate again.

AA has trained us to not fall in to the Stockholm syndrome trap. Yet that seems to be exactly what they are doing to us. Gun to the head. (BK) Take it away. Vote in terms and conditions we dictate or BK gun to the head again. Heres a 4.5% increase if we meet our 7 mile bar, we are like you we are in this together. Accept or terms or you die.

I will negotiate on an equal level with realistic numbers. But not this 420 million cut I am asked to take that they say is only 340 million.
 

air_guy

Member
Apr 8, 2003
97
0
Well I guess there is no way to get a positive reaction here. If there are no tweaks to the agreements that is signal of bad faith. If they do, the company is scared ... If getting back pre 9/11 credit rating seems impossible how come people think the company is asking for too much.... I don''t understand the logic.....

I am attaching an example of what is like to be in bankruptcy!

IF UNIONS REFUSE FURTHER CONCESSIONS THIS WEEK...CWA AND MANAGEMENT RESUME DISCUSSIONS ON MONDAY...

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The chief executive of the primary lender to bankrupt US Airways Group said he would liquidate the airline if unions refused to provide $200 million in additional wage and benefit concessions, The New York Times reported on Saturday.

David Bronner, CEO of the Retirement Systems of Alabama, said he did not expect to have to follow through on his ultimatum and predicted that cost-cutting discussions between the airline and its employees would result in an agreement by next week, The New York Times reported.

``What''s their alternative?'''' Bronner asked rhetorically. ``If they don''t want to do this, we''ll Chapter 7 it.''''

Alabama Retirement Systems has provided Arlington, Virginia-based US Airways with debtor-in-possession financing to help it operate while under bankruptcy protection. Bronner said that without the concessions, ``we''ll pull the DIP financing and they''re gone.''''

Bronner''s stance with the US Airways unions is an example of the tough stance analysts expect airlines to begin taking with employees now that a bankruptcy filing by UAL Corp.''s United Airlines is widely expected.

Executives at American Airlines'' parent AMR Corp., traveling around the country to meet with employees, also have asked workers to forgo pay increases next year in order to trim expenses by $3 billion to $4 billion.
 

RV4

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/10/2003 8:56:45 AM DLFlyer31 wrote:




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Statements like this make it clear why union membership has declined in the United States. It's pure greed and nothing more. Eat your young and let the senior employees stay fat, dumb and happy. How are you any better than the greedy CEO's who take raises while laying employee's off?

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Contrary! It is a disregard for the supply vs. demand problem of the industry and the desire for all unions to protect every last dues payers employment that is the current enemy of ALL.

It is the alliance with and the reliance on the Democratic Party that is weakening the position of the unions, not the members.
 

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