If you can't beat them......

wnbubbleboy

Veteran
Aug 21, 2002
944
22
By God Indiana
This is already posted on the AA Board. Well there goes the neighborhood.

Does anbody have any tips for our possible new neighbor? I say lunch at the local Whata Burger is to die for.



American sets Love meeting, weighs options

Session may be first step toward return to city airport


12:00 AM CST on Thursday, November 17, 2005

By ERIC TORBENSON and SUZANNE MARTA / The Dallas Morning News

Real estate officials from American Airlines Inc. will meet with Dallas Love Field's airport director Friday in what could be the initial steps of the carrier's return to the city facility.

However, Love Field director Kenneth Gwyn quickly added Wednesday that he's received no formal indications from American suggesting it's getting its three gates there ready for flights.

"I've not been notified orally or in writing" about American's intents, Mr. Gwyn said. The agenda for the meeting at Love hadn't been formally set either, he said.

The Fort Worth-based carrier could be positioning itself to combat Southwest Airlines Co., should Missouri become the eighth state that can be served with interstate commercial service from Love.

A spending bill in front of Congress this week contains language that would exempt Missouri from Wright amendment flight restrictions.

An American spokesman confirmed that the meeting has been scheduled but wouldn't elaborate on the carrier's plans at Love except to say it's considering its options.

Southwest launched the campaign to repeal Wright a year ago. The Dallas-based discounter wants to serve its nationwide network from its home airport.

American, along with Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport, has opposed lifting Wright.


Possible consequences

American has said that if the rules were lifted, it would be forced to divert flights to Love from D/FW because so many of its best customers live closer to the city airport.

But by doing that, American argues, its largest hub would be weakened, resulting in less service to smaller cities and some international destinations, eventually hurting the region's economy.

"St. Louis is the kind of mid- to long-range market that generates a lot of local traffic," said American's Tim Wagner. "That's the kind of market we've been saying all along that we expect to have diverted under the scenario where the Wright amendment is opened up at Love Field."

Although American doesn't fly directly against Southwest's service to 11 cities from Love today, it does compete on fares to those cities from D/FW.

Southwest won't say officially that it would launch service to St. Louis or Kansas City, but spokesman Ed Stewart noted that it appears increasingly likely that Missouri will be added to the Wright perimeter.

"If it does happen, it would be fair to say that the people of Missouri ought to be very encouraged," Mr. Stewart said. Southwest is already the largest carrier in Kansas City and the No. 2 carrier at St. Louis.

American last diverted planes to Love Field to compete against Legend Airlines, which flew for just eight months in 2000. American shared gates with Continental Airlines Inc.

Continental continues to serve Love with regional jet service to Houston. American suspended its Love service after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.



Never used


American's three gates at Love, adjacent to the two operated by Continental in the East Concourse, have never been used. They were set to open on Sept. 23, 2001.

They're in "good shape," Mr. Gwyn said, and simply would require jet bridges to be attached and some other equipment to become operational.
 
Session may be first step toward return to city airport
12:00 AM CST on Thursday, November 17, 2005
[....]

Ok, I know why they're wanting to move flights to Love but I just don't get the spin.

First AA makes the argument that DFW and Love Field are so close that it doesn't make sense to have commercial airline operations at both airports. Now they're talking about moving flights to Love. So which is it?

1) Love and DFW are so close that they are effectively the same location, or

2) they're so far apart that customers will display a resounding preference for one or the other.

Seems to me that if American would simply match fares with SWA the AA faithful would gladly drive the few extra miles to keep accumulating their "AAdvantage Miles."

I also think that flying the DAL-STL route with anything but MD80/B737 aircraft would be a highly misguided public relations flop. AA will have to use 100% "big stuff" with at least 57 seats or more. To put <56 seaters on the route is to slap the face of their proclaimed "best customers," the majority of which live closer to Love. (Recall the Wright Amendment has always permitted nationwide service with anything that has 56 seats or less.)
 
IMHO I think maybe the Big Kahuna's have gotten a message from "inside the Beltway" that the Wright Amendment may be in trouble. Now they're getting things in place for when it may be dropped.
 
IMHO I think maybe the Big Kahuna's have gotten a message from "inside the Beltway" that the Wright Amendment may be in trouble. Now they're getting things in place for when it may be dropped.

More likely, IMHO, its a case of AA making such strong threats for shifting flights if the Wright Amendment was changed that now they're hand is being forced. In order to protect any sense of integrity they have in claiming DFW would be pummeled by a Wright Amendment repeal AA has to move a significant number of DFW-MCI/STL flights to Love or else appear to be insincere. The battle for public perception may be the underlying motive.

(Hmmmm.... I wonder if any of AA's Love Field operations will be subsidized by DFW's PR budget?)
 
More likely, IMHO, its a case of AA making such strong threats for shifting flights if the Wright Amendment was changed that now they're hand is being forced. In order to protect any sense of integrity they have in claiming DFW would be pummeled by a Wright Amendment repeal AA has to move a significant number of DFW-MCI/STL flights to Love or else appear to be insincere. The battle for public perception may be the underlying motive.

(Hmmmm.... I wonder if any of AA's Love Field operations will be subsidized by DFW's PR budget?)
Here's the problem with AA trying MCI-DAL flights...a very large number of MCI passengers are connecting to other AA flights. Will they offer bus service over to DFW, or do they think that the O&D for MCI-DAL is strong enough to justify flights for those folks, and a second flight to DFW for the connecting passengers. Are two half full jets better than one full one?
 
Here's the problem with AA trying MCI-DAL flights...

You hit the nail on the head. This is the first time AA's had to deal with the restrictions of the Wright Amendment. (The Legend battle operated unrestricted under the <56 seat clause). If anyone from Dallas is going anywhere other than MCI or STL it will be faster for them to drive past Love to catch a nonstop to their destination from DFW rather than have to do the "Wright-shuffle."

However, for folks going to or from Lubbock (or any of the other Eagle-only Texas cities that SWA serves) this will allow them to ride on B737 airplanes all the way each direction since only SWA uses anything larger than RJs. Will AA shift MD80s to those markets too?

It will also be interesting to see if AA violates the provision that prohibits not only through ticketing but also the active marketing of "two tickets" to reach other destinations from MCI/STL after arriving from DAL. You can bet SWA's legal dept will be going over AA's advertisements in detail!


[edited for spelling error. Whoops!]
 
Here's the problem with AA trying MCI-DAL flights...a very large number of MCI passengers are connecting to other AA flights. Will they offer bus service over to DFW, or do they think that the O&D for MCI-DAL is strong enough to justify flights for those folks, and a second flight to DFW for the connecting passengers. Are two half full jets better than one full one?

Aahhh...but here is the fun piece! They cannot through-ticket anyways so the pax would first-off have to have your knowledge of getting around the ticketing restrictions (which most, especially those in cities new to the WA are not at all familiar) and then have two totally separate tickets anyways. Guess that AA could feed WN and the pax could buy one ticket on each!

Wouldn't that be interesting...an AA/WN codeshare! Better to keep you friends close and enemies closer, right?
 
Since the airports are so close together AA could build a high speed monorail system to connect Love to DFW and further advance their route system. Fly domestic through Love, and extended range flights through DFW.
 
Since the airports are so close together AA could build a high speed monorail system to connect Love to DFW and further advance their route system. Fly domestic through Love, and extended range flights through DFW.

I was wondering if the new access to STL and MCI might just be a "the" comprimise that keeps Wright in place.
 
I was wondering if the new access to STL and MCI might just be a "the" comprimise that keeps Wright in place.

To maintain any sense of credibility regarding the perils of a Wright repeal AA will have to respond to this development by shifting an inordinate number of flights from DFW to Love Field and severely reducing or terminating service to small cities. If they fail to do this they (and DFW) will be viewed as purveyors of a fictious doomsday scenario and simply add strength to the view that a Wright repeal isn't going to cause harm.

Of course, by doing this AA will have to accept a huge increase in costs by splitting their operation, forfeit the potential of connecting traffic at DFW, and incur the wrath of cities they reduce or cut service from. Other than that, this response is 100% logical.

I think this is more likely to be a chink in the armor that brings Wright down entirely although I doubt it will be immediate. (Sept 2007?)
 
I was wondering if the new access to STL and MCI might just be a "the" comprimise that keeps Wright in place.

MiAAmi-

I tend to think you're right on this one. Shelby did the same years ago to quiet the dissidents for a short period. AA/DFW will argue that this is a significant addition (while ignoring that CHI, LA, and NYC as well as through-ticketing would be the real significant additions that would truly benefit all) and that the case should be closed.
 
It's pretty easy for y'all to say that it doesn't make sense for AA to add DAL-STL flights because of the thru ticketing requirement.

Why then does it make sense for WN? Go ahead and drink all the Wild Turkey Koolaid you want to about how great this will be, but from a network perspective, what does either MCI or STL really offer, other than another opportunity for people to continue to two-step??
 
It's pretty easy for y'all to say that it doesn't make sense for AA to add DAL-STL flights because of the thru ticketing requirement.

Why then does it make sense for WN? Go ahead and drink all the Wild Turkey Koolaid you want to about how great this will be, but from a network perspective, what does either MCI or STL really offer, other than another opportunity for people to continue to two-step??

(How about I just answer the question you posed and ignore your condescending comments about Koolaid? :rolleyes: )


AA already has unrestricted DFW to MCI/STL service in place ... it's just greatly overpriced. I believe that AA would retain the vast majority of its passengers simply by matching SWA's fares from DFW on those routes. (Even if they just got close they'd be able to keep those who are AAdvantage Mile junkies!)

Granted, I do not have access to the entire expenses AA would incur to stand up operations at Love Field. That being said, it seems to me that the costs of moving flights to Love Field AND having to match fares from Love with SWA is a double-whammy to AA's bottom line that would appear to be driven by ego, not business logic.

On the WN side of the equation, except for Houston, MCI and STL are the two largest markets that will be available directly from Dallas under the Wright Amendment. Each of these cities offer nearly 70 additional SWA flights as "two-step connections." For example: DAL-SMF with a change in MCI is of great personal interest. Or how about DAL-DTW with a quick change in STL for the GM folks coming out of Arlington?

Additionally, the STL and MCI passengers headed to Texas will welcome the opportunity to get rid of the inconvenience of a two step whether they're going to Dallas itself or on to any of the other Texas cities. (Lubbock -> St Louis with no plane changes and only a single stop? Could be! AA requires an Eagle flight to DFW, change planes and terminals then on to STL.)

Thus, it's a whole new route market for WN while it's just old news for AA, albeit with robust competition for a change. SWA isn't Vanguard :)
 
(How about I just answer the question you posed and ignore your condescending comments about Koolaid? :rolleyes: )
AA already has unrestricted DFW to MCI/STL service in place ... it's just greatly overpriced. I believe that AA would retain the vast majority of its passengers simply by matching SWA's fares from DFW on those routes. (Even if they just got close they'd be able to keep those who are AAdvantage Mile junkies!)

Granted, I do not have access to the entire expenses AA would incur to stand up operations at Love Field. That being said, it seems to me that the costs of moving flights to Love Field AND having to match fares from Love with SWA is a double-whammy to AA's bottom line that would appear to be driven by ego, not business logic.

On the WN side of the equation, except for Houston, MCI and STL are the two largest markets that will be available directly from Dallas under the Wright Amendment. Each of these cities offer nearly 70 additional SWA flights as "two-step connections." For example: DAL-SMF with a change in MCI is of great personal interest. Or how about DAL-DTW with a quick change in STL for the GM folks coming out of Arlington?

Additionally, the STL and MCI passengers headed to Texas will welcome the opportunity to get rid of the inconvenience of a two step whether they're going to Dallas itself or on to any of the other Texas cities. (Lubbock -> St Louis with no plane changes and only a single stop? Could be! AA requires an Eagle flight to DFW, change planes and terminals then on to STL.)

Thus, it's a whole new route market for WN while it's just old news for AA, albeit with robust competition for a change. SWA isn't Vanguard :)


Interesting analysis...no question that WN benefits much more from a Wright repeal. I would also think that moving services to Love would be very expensive for AA, but that losing customers, which I think they would do, would be a long-term expense. I do think AA would follow through on moving a lot of short-haul flights to Love, not only costing them and the airports quite a bit, but also causing access problems for Dallas and Fort Worth...one reason that I question the value of repealing Wright