Is 3rd Party Maintenance Unsafe?

[USA320Pilot]

How come Southwest, Fed Ex, United and the entire U.S. Military (Air Force, Navy, Marine, Army, & Coast Guard units) all outsource overhaul and do not have any maintenance problems?

As a former Maintenance Test Pilot and Research, Development, Test, & Evaluation Pilot at the Naval Air Test Center, I never saw anything but professional maintenance from contractors.

Moreover, US Airways mechanics conduct the quality assurance on the A320 outsourced overhaul, therefore, if there are maintenance problems following the work, isn't the real problem with the Q&A?

To me this issue is not about safety, which is not a problem at the major airlines listed above and the military, it's an outsourcing issue.

Why? According to reports it takes US Airways' Maintenance Department 18 days to do an overhaul and a contractor 13 days. In addition, the extra 5 days the aircraft is in overhaul the company loses 5 days of revenue generation.

I do not like outsourcing anymore than anybody else and my work group is seeing its work outsourced with RJ flying, but the issue is to cost compete with the mainline competition. For me it’s the LCC pilots, but since the LCCs do not have overhaul, for the mechanics it’s the third-party maintenance facility.

I have been told the company has presented the IAM with a plan to keep the overhaul in-house, but the IAM rejected the proposal. In light of the courts ruling, an expedited grievance taking months to resolve, and the fact the company wins virtually every grievance, I believe it may be in the mechanics best interest to re-visit the company's proposal to conduct the work in-house.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[delldude]

According to reports it takes US Airways' Maintenance Department 18 days to do an overhaul and a contractor 13 days
never done one inhouse bucko...how do you claim this?
I have been told the company has presented the IAM with a plan to keep the overhaul in-house, but the IAM rejected the proposal.
yes it is called going by the CBA
and the fact the company wins virtually every grievance,
YOU BEST CHECK-AFA DID VERY WELL RECENTLY

 

[Winglet]

The military system provides a lot of oversight, as well as military test flights. And, oh, BTW, they DO have problems. Two aircraft nearly destroyed on the ramp by military contractors that I can remember. I also know flight acceptance test pilots that had a lot of stories to tell about what junk came out of contractor's hangars. QA guys don't see every nut and bolt put on the aircraft. They rely on a few spot checks and a lot of paperwork checking . . . . . something that is easily forged.

The point is that these cheapo outfits that hire Mexican unlicensed labor for crap compensation in backwoods states, are primarily concerned with getting away with as much as they can before an accident and the subsequent FAA interest. The FAA oversight is totally inadequate. How much oversight that the airline puts into it is suspect also, especially at U where every dime (except the corporate perks) is subject to scruntiny. Maybe if Dave was made to fly in every aircraft coming out of heavy checks, he'd think different.

 

[AOG-N-IT]

I think in everyones best interest...and least of all in the interest of re-couping some degree of your own integrity , you need to present things more factually.

Some of the examples you made do not "Outsource" ALL their Heavy Maintenance..and in the case of WN itself , they are moving toward bringng more and more of their heavy work 'In-House" as we speak

I love your stories about your military background too. Sure you saw nothing wrong with Military Contract work...how could you? 8 out of 10 People hired by Military contractors for on sight work are drawn from the very ranks that have worked those exact Acft for 10 years or till retirement from the military in that exact field...they actively seek and recruit the best of that career field when they become available...the same can be said for the foriegn market they support as well. I know for sure that Boeing and Lockheed have primo ex-military techs recruited and working with every country whom has purchased and F-16 , C-130 or anything else you care to export.

How do these type of Technicians get compaired to the new hires from A&P schools or even less qualiied people at the likes of ST Mobile Aerospace in Mobile Al?...how about the immigrants hired there with little grasp of of the written and spoken international language of aviation called english?


Next...what is the issue of 13 days compared to 18 days when U has become manpower immasculated at the hands of those you are so eager to please and kiss up too. I would rather have a perfect machine in 18 days with no worries..than a plane ripe for yet another emergency landing and added un-forecasted downtime that you eagerly fail to mention in 13 days , plus the added fix time and costs associated with it...lets not forget the scare an emergency landing heaps on minds of those involved whom are not former test pilots either.


Lastly..you comment that the company appraoched the IAM on how to keep the work in house..and the IAM rejected the idea. NOT TRUE...the IAM offered options to curtail costs...and the company wouldn't listen to the IAM.

Before you attempt to right the wrongs in this world Captain....I suggest you get a firm grasp on what the real wrongs are ..and whom has made them such.

You are a future victim of the very people you support and attempt to distort the real truth for...I suggest you brace for a real career crash soon if you continue to view the world through your crazed visor such as you do.

Don't let your mistakes of leaving UA for a clouded future at U distort your perspective or make telling half truths to good people easier. We all know whom you are looking out after...and a couple of years of constant exposure will not alter the pereception you've created with your co-workers or the folks at UA that you've heaped distorted stories upon either.

We've got your number USA320pilot...and we've got a big number 2 digit extended for your views and opinions in light of it.

 

[N628AU]

USA320Pilot:

As for your comment about what time frame it takes for overhauls, you miss two points:

(1) US mechanics have never overhauled any of the 320 aircraft inhouse. It is a bit difficult to tell how long it would take.

(2) Current overhauls going overtime are more often than not manpower issues. Years ago, management made the shortsighted decision to work 7 days a week intead of 5 days a week, but with the same staffing levels. This gives you less manpower per shift to get stuff done. Some aircraft in CLT have sat for shift after shift over the weekend because there is just no one to work it. Go walk through the big house in CLT about 4AM on a weekend and see just how many people are working in there.

 

[700UW]

Your information is as slanted as your thought process!

WN does not outsource all its maintenance, they do all their C-Checks in-house and 1/4 D-checks in-house. Goodrich does their full D-checks and WN has a major oversight process in place.

FedEx does not outsource all their maintenance, they have heavy mtc in MEM, LAX and IND.

UAL does not outsource all their maintenance either.

And please provide what US Airways mechanics provided QA, there are no, none, zilch, Nada US Airways mechanics at BFM providing QA, first of all regular mechanics do not perform QA work, second the only people from QA at BFM are MANAGEMENT!

The Armed Services does not outsource all their maintenance and where they do outsource it, it is done by the manufacturer of the planes.

And how can it take 18 days for US Airways mechanics to perform and S-check when it has never been done in-house?

Second, the company provides the staffing, you can put 1,000 mechanics on a check and get it done in a days or you can put one mechanic on it and it can take him a year. Compare the actual staffing #'s and you will see.

The company NEVER EVER provided the IAM with a plan to perform the maintenance in-house, NEVER EVER EVER, can you fathom that? I have spoken with the IAM AGCs and what your warped sense of the truth is a bunch of manure. The IAM provided Several plans to the Company to show how the maintenance could be performed in-house and the former VP of Maintenance Charles Nardello all ready has the company's plan in place where we could do the work in-house, they fired him for standing up to Cohen and telling US that this is IAM covered work.

Why don't you stick to your own misinformation about ALPA and keep your nose out of IAM business because what you post is a complete 180 degrees of the truth and what actually transpired!

 

[savyinvestor]

How come Southwest, Fed Ex, United and the entire U.S. Military (Air Force, Navy, Marine, Army, & Coast Guard units) all outsource overhaul and do not have any maintenance problems?

As a former Maintenance Test Pilot and Research, Development, Test, & Evaluation Pilot at the Naval Air Test Center, I never saw anything but professional maintenance from contractors.

Moreover, US Airways mechanics conduct the quality assurance on the A320 outsourced overhaul, therefore, if there are maintenance problems following the work, isn't the real problem with the Q&A?

To me this issue is not about safety, which is not a problem at the major airlines listed above and the military, it's an outsourcing issue.

Why? According to reports it takes US Airways' Maintenance Department 18 days to do an overhaul and a contractor 13 days. In addition, the extra 5 days the aircraft is in overhaul the company loses 5 days of revenue generation.

I do not like outsourcing anymore than anybody else and my work group is seeing its work outsourced with RJ flying, but the issue is to cost compete with the mainline competition. For me it’s the LCC pilots, but since the LCCs do not have overhaul, for the mechanics it’s the third-party maintenance facility.

I have been told the company has presented the IAM with a plan to keep the overhaul in-house, but the IAM rejected the proposal. In light of the courts ruling, an expedited grievance taking months to resolve, and the fact the company wins virtually every grievance, I believe it may be in the mechanics best interest to re-visit the company's proposal to conduct the work in-house.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

Blah, blah, blah...... some things/people never change!!!!!!!!!! Savy :down:

 

[blueoceans]

"WN does not outsource all its maintenance, they do all their C-Checks in-house and 1/4 D-checks in-house. Goodrich does their full D-checks and WN has a major oversight process in place.

FedEx does not outsource all their maintenance, they have heavy mtc in MEM, LAX and IND.

UAL does not outsource all their maintenance either.

The Armed Services does not outsource all their maintenance "

These statements are more of an argument that US shoud start outsourcing some heavy mtc than keep it all inside.

 

[TheLarkAscending]

320 -

Your mantra has not changed, perhaps the essence of the data has, but the chant is the same -- it just happens to be two years later. Everyone has your number. You may, indeed, have a stake in the decisions, you do not, however, have a vote in their process. It would behoove you to resist the constant drum beating, these individuals will do exactly what is best for them, and all of your repetitive posts will not, I repeat, will not change their minds. It only serves to bait and anger them, and that is neither productive nor positive.

 

[High Iron]

"WN does not outsource all its maintenance, they do all their C-Checks in-house and 1/4 D-checks in-house. Goodrich does their full D-checks and WN has a major oversight process in place.

FedEx does not outsource all their maintenance, they have heavy mtc in MEM, LAX and IND.

UAL does not outsource all their maintenance either.

The Armed Services does not outsource all their maintenance "

These statements are more of an argument that US shoud start outsourcing some heavy mtc than keep it all inside.

I don't know. Sounds like a half-empty/half-full issue there. What of those that are trending more towards in-house?

 

[High Iron]

320 -

Your mantra has not changed, perhaps the essence of the data has, but the chant is the same -- it just happens to be two years later. Everyone has your number. You may, indeed, have a stake in the decisions, you do not, however, have a vote in their process. It would behoove you to resist the constant drum beating, these individuals will do exactly what is best for them, and all the repetitive posts will not, I repeat, will not change their minds.

...And we've seen the same arguments made by said individual, which were categorically refuted, time and time again...only to result in a tactical silence of suitable duration...and then the same mantra uttered yet again. That's perseverence for ya!

Or to put it more bluntly: Keep throwing out statements...and lots and lots of them- And hope some of it sticks. They say quantity is a quality all its own......

 

[AP Tech]

USA320;
Hate to break the news to you but I have a problem with your figures...18 days inhouse vs 13 days contract? Are these projections made by the "crack managment " team? Last I checked they have never done an S check on an Airbus. They are currently doing C's, and for your info they have been ready a shift or two early, unless a problem is discovered. But don't worry because when the "bama boys" are doing their checks I am sure they will only be looking at what is on their cards. U mechanics did find cracks in the eng fire supression tubes which appear to be chronic due to a design problem which extended the etr on one of the C checks......but don't worry contract mtc will not be looking in that area so the A/C will make ETR.

As for the claim of U mechanics doing QA on the A/C coming out of Mobile....hate to tell you but its a different deparment, and they are considered managment.

Hate to tell you but the mechanics like the pilots are under contract and it should be honored until renegotiated !!!!!

Some people will never learn, it all about Me,Me,Me,I,I,I.........

 

[cavalier]

U mechanics did find cracks in the eng fire supression tubes which appear to be chronic due to a design problem which extended the etr on one of the C checks......but don't worry contract mtc will not be looking in that area so the A/C will make ETR.

And if by chance that should turn into a flight control problem, well the good captain here is a crack test pilot so not to worry about those little pesky issues that could affect the bottom line in a negative way.

 

[sentrido]

I guess it depends who is doing the work. When I worked contract maint I never cut corners. Where I worked everybody had an A&P, and most were ex US. Im sure a reputable Contractor would not comporomise safety. But they probably arent the cheapest either. The thing is, only a third of the mechanics at STS are certified. Would you fly an airline where only 1/3rd of the pilots had a license?

 

[Reservation Agent]

I believe the military has... had problems in their history with aircraft maintaince problems...seems like I remember problems and grounding of aircraft like helicopters, harrier jets, etc...

It is not made as big a story possibly due to the nature of of it being military aircraft....
Also, the government seems to not always give the work to the lowest bidders, have had contractors padding their expenses.....like $500 toilets....$300 hammers that we saw in the past government expenses....