It's Official Atsb Says "no"

Fly

Veteran
Mar 7, 2003
2,644
2
Visit site
Good read from another board

This past week while reading the news about the ATSB's rejection of the United Airlines loan application in the New York times, I glanced at my television and happened to see a clip of the 9/11 commission being covered on the news. The clip I saw was a reenactment of United Airlines flight 175 crashing into the World Trade Center shortly after American Airlines suffered the same fate in the adjacent tower. In recent months, the public has been told by many of our nations business leaders and politicians that United Airlines does not deserve a government backed loan and that United was not a fundamental and essential part of the nations aviation system, but the likes of US Airways and Americawest are. Commentary suggested that the winds of the free market place should pick the winners and losers in an industry with too much capacity and that the severe attacks on our nation that tragic day did not cause any of the problems that United and the industry face today while at the same time, Holman W Jenkins Jr. of the Wall Street Journal states in his editorial, Let Failure Be An Option, goes on to blame the bailout board for not taking full advantage of the post-9/11 crisis and let brand name airlines die. Sen. Peter Fitzgerald of Illinois, a long time opponent of any support to the airlines post 9/11 is now insisting on an investigation on whether or not improper political pressure is being used on United's behalf, but has no interest in investigating the improper political and business lobbying pressure that has been exerted against United since the loan process began. So the following questions must be asked and addressed to expose the inconsistencies and hypocrisies that now face United's request. At what point since United's first request for a loan did the rules change as far as who qualifies and who doesn't. When was it determined that United was no longer an important part of the national aviation system? Are we to believe that that determination was just made shortly before the second rejection or was that determined prior to the first application? At what point in the loan process did the board determine that United could survive without assistance which was disqualifying? When was it determined that the US government did everything in its power to prevent 9/11 and was in no way responsible for what happened to the first victims to arrive on the new battlefield that was New York City? Who determined that the money given to the airlines shortly after its historic grounding, was more than adequate to cover the existing cost and future security expenses that were directly attributed to what happened? When did it become acceptable to funnel BILLIONS of US tax payers dollars overseas to foreign governments and puppet leaders while being unacceptable to support companies with tax payers money who were most affected by 19 murderous highjackers? Why is it OK to relax the terms of the US Airways loan when it became clear that they would default, but considered it wasted tax payer money to cosign sign a loan for United? Did the opponents of the United loan application, vigorously oppose the applications of the other recipients that were not greatly impacted by 9/11? Should United be penalized for having the foresight to apply for a loan while Northwest, Delta, and American chose not to? Did United create the ATSB to help itself or was the ATSB created by the federal government to assist airlines most affected by 9/11? These questions must be answered and accounted for. No politician or business leader can honestly look United employees or family members of one of our lost employees in the eye and say this 80 year old company that has contributed so very much to the safety and innovation of the system we now operate in is of no value and should just go away. If we let al Qaeda pick the winners and losers in the market place, there will only be losers!
 
It's an interesting read, though it rambles quite a bit. I'll toss my two cents in on it.

In recent months, the public has been told by many of our nations business leaders and politicians that United Airlines does not deserve a government backed loan and that United was not a fundamental and essential part of the nations aviation system, but the likes of US Airways and Americawest are.
One may choose to infer this from the loan rejection, but such an inference would be ignoring far too many factors. I'd be hard pressed to believe that any single airline in this country is fundamental and essential to our nation's aviation system. The number of markets left unserved by the departure of any single airline would be trivial.

Commentary suggested that ... the severe attacks on our nation that tragic day did not cause any of the problems that United and the industry face today
What they suggested was that those attacks affected the industry as a whole, and the marginal financial impact to UA vis a vis other airlines is low. Certainly the evidence bears that out.

At what point since United's first request for a loan did the rules change as far as who qualifies and who doesn't.
They didn't.

When was it determined that United was no longer an important part of the national aviation system?
When was it determined that "important" was synonymous with "fundamental and essential?"

At what point in the loan process did the board determine that United could survive without assistance which was disqualifying?
Why does it matter?

When was it determined that the US government did everything in its power to prevent 9/11 and was in no way responsible for what happened to the first victims to arrive on the new battlefield that was New York City?
Red herring question, but why not just ask the feds to pay for the two airplanes and be done with it then? And why doesn't AA need this but UA does?

Why is it OK to relax the terms of the US Airways loan when it became clear that they would default, but considered it wasted tax payer money to cosign sign a loan for United?
Because one is a preservation of an existing investment, while the other is a new investment.

Should United be penalized for having the foresight to apply for a loan while Northwest, Delta, and American chose not to?
In a word, yes. One must always be held accountable for one's business decisions.

was the ATSB created by the federal government to assist airlines most affected by 9/11?
It was created to "Stabilize" an industry that was exceptionally unstable nearly three years ago. At least, that's their claim. Others might suggest that it was a boondoggle.

No politician or business leader can honestly look United employees or family members of one of our lost employees in the eye and say this 80 year old company that has contributed so very much to the safety and innovation of the system we now operate in is of no value and should just go away.
Nor should any politician look taxpayers in the eye and say that United should get a loan for sentimental reasons. If that were the criterion to use, TW, PA, EA, and BN should all have had significant infusions of cash from the feds. What's past is past.
 
Amen on all points mweiss.

A couple more points to add:

1. The notion among UAers that United has some kind of birthright or entitlement to an ATSB guarantee or even continued existence has to go - NOW. If United is to survive, it shall be solely based on the company's ability to reform itself into a viable enterprise - NOT on hoping for money to fall out of the sky, or delusional thinking that election year politics will save the airline.

2. For the record, both HP and US had made substantive changes to the way they operated when the ATSB granted their guarantees. In the case of US, W&S had eliminated nearly all non-hub/focus city flying, and rationalized the fleet from too many types down to five (737, 319/320/321, 757, 767, 330).
 
Folks,

This is gonna be a tough summer for us, but deep down I feel that this might be the better course. Good luck to us all.
 
Reuters
U.S. Kills United's Bids for Loan Backing
Monday June 28, 10:05 am ET


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Transportation Stabilization Board on Monday rejected United Airlines' bid for a $1.1 billion federal loan guarantee, and said it would not accept any further submissions regarding the bankrupt airline's application.
ADVERTISEMENT


United (OTC BB:UALAQ.OB - News), the No. 2 U.S. airline, last week cut its request from $1.6 billion after the board rejected its application. The company has sought the loan guarantee to back private financing needed to exit bankruptcy later this year.

"The board concluded that granting the loan guarantee is not a necessary part of maintaining a safe, efficient, and viable commercial aviation system in the United States," ATSB Executive Director Michael Kestenbaum said in a letter to United, echoing comments made last week to the airline.

He told United that the new information submitted "does not alter in a material manner the rationales underlying" ATSB's rejection last week.

"The board will not accept any further submissions from United with respect to the application," Kestenbaum said.

United's first loan guarantee application, for $1.8 billion, was denied in 2002, triggering the airline to seek bankruptcy protection, the largest ever in U.S. airline history.

A representative for Elk Grove, Illinois-based United was not immediately available for
 
Below is a cut and paste from a section of another CBS Marketwatch article. Pay attention to that last sentence. Yikes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UAL soon plans to start talks with potential borrowers about the company's business plan. The company had hoped to secure $500 million from private investors as part of its plan to get the federal loan guarantee.

Airline consultants and analysts say UAL will have to dig up at least another $700 million to $1 billion in cost savings to lure private investors.
 
Press Release Source: United Airlines


Statement from United Airlines
Monday June 28, 10:26 am ET


CHICAGO, June 28 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The ATSB has informed us of their final decision not to provide a loan guarantee. While we disagree with their decision, we are gratified by the ATSB's public recognition of our progress and are already moving forward to secure the exit financing we need to take United out of bankruptcy. The message from the ATSB is that we can get the exit financing we need on our own.
Throughout this process, we have been in constant communication with our lenders, and they continue to be tremendously supportive of us. We expected that a significant portion of the exit financing would be debt-based - with or without the ATSB guarantee. That will continue to be the case, and we are now holding discussions with our lenders and others to determine what an appropriate overall capital structure might be. The discussions we are having will enable us to fill that out, so we can continue moving forward toward our exit from Chapter 11.

The work we have done over the past 18 months has created a solid, highly competitive business platform that we expect will attract the capital necessary to exit.

United's (OTC Bulletin Board: UALAQ - News) employees continue to deliver excellent operating performance and the great service our customers have come to expect. At the same time, there is still more work to do given the highly competitive and evolving industry environment. We will continue to take the actions necessary to further reduce costs and improve revenue while remaining firmly focused on providing a superior travel experience to all of our customers.
 
It's all a matter of timing. If UAL's 2002 application had been acceptable, they would have the loan. There are plenty of airlines fully capable of taking up any slack - domestic or international - should UA shrink its network.

The irony is that most of United's int'l rights are being rendered less valuable as the US negotiates new treaties with countries - China most recently and the EU (affecting LHR) very possible in the near future.
 
mweiss said:
It's an interesting read, though it rambles quite a bit. I'll toss my two cents in on it.

One may choose to infer this from the loan rejection, but such an inference would be ignoring far too many factors. I'd be hard pressed to believe that any single airline in this country is fundamental and essential to our nation's aviation system. The number of markets left unserved by the departure of any single airline would be trivial.

What they suggested was that those attacks affected the industry as a whole, and the marginal financial impact to UA vis a vis other airlines is low. Certainly the evidence bears that out.

They didn't.

When was it determined that "important" was synonymous with "fundamental and essential?"

Why does it matter?

Red herring question, but why not just ask the feds to pay for the two airplanes and be done with it then? And why doesn't AA need this but UA does?

Because one is a preservation of an existing investment, while the other is a new investment.

In a word, yes. One must always be held accountable for one's business decisions.

It was created to "Stabilize" an industry that was exceptionally unstable nearly three years ago. At least, that's their claim. Others might suggest that it was a boondoggle.

Nor should any politician look taxpayers in the eye and say that United should get a loan for sentimental reasons. If that were the criterion to use, TW, PA, EA, and BN should all have had significant infusions of cash from the feds. What's past is past.
mweiss,

Both you and AVEK claim that UAL is not part of the fundamental and essential air service for this country.

Based on that claim, I presume you would both be in favor of removing the airlines from the RLA and placing them under the less restricitve covenants of the NLRB?

In other words, Clinton would have been forbidden to order the AA Pilots back to work or intervene in the Flight Attendant strike; although, we're still linterested in the "Focal Points" of those particular interests;-)