jetBlue to Toronto/Hamilton, ON?

viggen597

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Hey evereyone. Today I was sent an article from the Toronto Globe and Mail and it mentions jetBlue looking for airport space at either Toronto (YYZ) or Hamilton (YHM). Thought that that was interesting, so I posted just the quote from the article and a hyperlink to the actual article (which talks about the downsizing of AC''s Tango).

And JetBlue Airways Corp., a successful New York-based discounter founded in 2000, is considering service to Canada. Sources say JetBlue officials have been in discussions with airports in Toronto and Hamilton over securing airport space.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/...NStory/business
 

MAH4546

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Aug 22, 2002
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On 4/12/2003 12:58:18 AM viggen597 wrote:

Hey evereyone. Today I was sent an article from the Toronto Globe and Mail and it mentions jetBlue looking for airport space at either Toronto (YYZ) or Hamilton (YHM). Thought that that was interesting, so I posted just the quote from the article and a hyperlink to the actual article (which talks about the downsizing of AC''s Tango).

"And JetBlue Airways Corp., a successful New York-based discounter founded in 2000, is considering service to Canada. Sources say JetBlue officials have been in discussions with airports in Toronto and Hamilton over securing airport space."

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/...NStory/business

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Interesting. If true, I would suspect Ft. Lauderdale-Toronto/Hamilton, though. JFK doesn''t make sense for this operation. Then again, you never know...
 
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viggen597

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From what I have seen, our Canadian customers fly us to JFK, Florida, and even LGB and OAK because its tremendously less expenisve to fly an American airline vs. a Canadian airline. Im sure you know, but Canada imposes so many taxes and fees that Canadian air travel is slumped because its simply not worth it to fly. Remember WestJet''s $8 round trip fare that proved that point? FLL-YYZ is already served by Tango but you''re right, who knows.

Happy flying!
 

FrugalFlyer

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Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/12/2003 12:00:13 PM viggen597 wrote:
Im sure you know, but Canada imposes so many taxes and fees that Canadian air travel is slumped because its simply not worth it to fly. Remember WestJet''s $8 round trip fare that proved that point? FLL-YYZ is already served by Tango but you''re right, who knows.
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Canada imposes approximately the same number of taxes and fees that the USA does. It''s a common misconception about Canada and taxes. Sure, taxes are a bit higher than USA, but is in not Europe!

There are several reasons that Canadian air travel is slumping:
1) economy - although not in recession, it is not exactly booming
2) war in Iraq - although not directly involved, the war has lead to a decrease in trans-Atlantic travel
3) SARS - self explanatory
4) USA economy - USA is Canada''s largest trading/business partner, if the economy is slumping in the USA, it will affect Canada, especially air travel

Westjet raised a stink about taxes/ security fees only after 9/11. The government initially imposed a $24 charge for each segment (I think it has been changed/reduced since then but I''m not 100% sure). Ofcourse this hurt Westjet especially in the province of Alberta and western Canada. For example, if a Westjet ticket between city A and B was $89 plus tax and airport improvement fee the $24 security surcharge was a big kick in the gonads. Ofcourse this hurt Air Canada as well.

I don''t know whether jetBlues move into Canada will be that easy.

YYZ is not a cheap and easy place to operate from. I don''t think there is any/much room in Terminal 3. AC occupies Terminal 1 and 2 and once the new terminal is completed AC will occupy most of it. With the construction of the new terminal underway now space is tight in YYZ. Also YYZ is AC''s hub, and AC may not be pushed around that easily. AC can maintain mainline service to NY-LGA for the business passenger and just use AC Tango to battle jetBlue to NY-JFK and Florida. Also, there are numerous charters from Canada (not just YYZ) to Florida.

Hamilton may also not be that great. YHM is a Westjet hub. YHM is entrenched in Hamilton, it is Westjets eaastern hub. I think Westjet has ambitions / plans to expand into the USA in the future, and may not react too warmly to jetBlue service to YHM. What would be interesting is some sort of a code-share / partnership between Westjet and jetBlue. Why not? The majors do it why not the discounters?

If jetBlue does begin service to Canada I think JFK-YYZ flight(s) for the business travelers and a FLL-YHN flight(s) for the vacationers might work.
 

MAH4546

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Aug 22, 2002
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On 4/12/2003 12:00:13 PM viggen597 wrote:

FLL-YYZ is already served by Tango but you''re right, who knows.

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Only Air Canada mainline flies FLL-YYZ. Both mainline and Tango fly FLL-YUL, while Tango exclusively flies FLL-YOW and FLL-YQB (which is the only mainline transborder service from Quebec City). Unlike other US-Canada markets, the Canada-South Florida market, which is the largest transborder market from Canada after New York City, has the bulk of O&D travel coming from Quebec and not Ontario.
 

stud_lee

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Feb 20, 2003
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I actually think aviation taxes are quite a bit higher in Canada. I’m Canadian and live in NYC and go back and forth to Canada every few months and I’d say taxes are a good third of what I pay for the total price. It makes more sense for me to take B6 to BUF and rent a car to Toronto rather than fly directly there. But the Government said they will reduce them in the near future, so who knows?

Personally, I hope B6 starts a YYZ-JFK route. I hear that B6 might have some codeshare agreement with WestJet, which is great because I can avoid flying AC when I visit YEG, where my family lives.

But I’m a realist and I don’t think such a route would work because there is already tremendous competition and JetsGo is flying into EWR right now. Besides, AC has cut capacity to EWR and is only sending RJ now. Maybe YYZ-FLL could work.

I also think B6 would do well on a JFK-YVR or FLL-YVR route, especially from JFK. Vancouver is a very popular tourist destination from New York, especially with the excellent skiing at Whistler. CX and AC do (or did) quite well on that route.

Mark in Miami: I think YYZ-ORD is the busiest US-Canada city pair. South Florida and NYC are definitely up there. I’m curious about L.A. because over a million Canadians live there, so there must be a lot of Canadian traffic as well.
 

stud_lee

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Feb 20, 2003
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You can fly to BUF from NYC for $125. I’m not sure what B6 charges because I’ve never looked them up. It usually costs me $225 to YYZ (and that’s with a special deal). Surprisingly, flying to YOW is much cheaper. And yes, I know how horrid the QEW can be. I lived in Toronto once before.

You might be right with aviation related taxes. They could be similar, but are you just referring to flights on both US and Canadian airlines going between the US and Canada? Do the same levies apply to carriers from both countries? I’m pretty sure domestic flights within the US aren’t as heavily taxed, at least that is my impression when I fly. I’d like to see the breakdown (and amount) of US aviation taxes within the US for curiosity’s sake.

I don’t work in the industry; I’m just a lowly enthusiast dying – at this bad time -- to get in. I don’t have the inside knowledge that you folks might have.
 

FrugalFlyer

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On 4/15/2003 6:40:27 PM stud_lee wrote:
I actually think aviation taxes are quite a bit higher in Canada. I’m Canadian and live in NYC and go back and forth to Canada every few months and I’d say taxes are a good third of what I pay for the total price. It makes more sense for me to take B6 to BUF and rent a car to Toronto rather than fly directly there. But the Government said they will reduce them in the near future, so who knows?
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I would like to disagree.

In the great white north, the following (explained in detail below) is added to the typical Air Canada base fare:
1) NavCan surcharge - all carriers
2) Fuel surcharge - Westjet/Canjet/Jetsgo may charge less than AC
3) Insurance surcharge - Westjet/Canjet/Jetsgo may charge less than AC
4) ATSC - security tax, all carriers
5) Airport fees - self explanatory
6) Taxes - provincial sales tax (i.e. 8% in Ontario) or federal GST where applicable plus any international taxes/fees

How is this significantly different from a typical airline ticket purchased in the USA? The only difference I see is the surcharge to NAVCAN - which is ~$24 CAD!!! Not much of a significant difference!
Again, a common misconception about sky high taxes and Canada.

Also, that flight you take to Buffalo must be really really cheap and the rental car must be realy really cheap as well for you to save $$$ instead of flying from NYC-YYZ. Buffalo-Toronto is approx. 100 miles, and the drive along the QEW is not pleasant especially between Hamilton and Toronto.


Here are the charges added to the base fare in detail for those dying to know


1) NAV Canada: NAVCAN surcharges of $24.00 per round-trip ticket, or $12.00 for a one-way ticket are included for travel wholly within Canada. For transborder itineraries, $7.50 (CAD) $4.65 (USD) each way or $15.00 (CAD) or $9.30 (USD) per round-trip ticket. This surcharge is collected to cover the fees that to NAV Canada to operate Canada''s Air Navigation systems.

2) Fuel Surcharges: In order to account for the recent surge in world oil prices, Air Canada, along with other Canadian and North American carriers have implemented a fuel surcharge. This fuel surcharge can range from $15.00 to $25.00 (CAD) each way per ticket for travel wholly within Canada or $14.30 (CAD), $9.30 (USD) each way for transborder itineraries. (Some exceptions apply).

3) Insurance Surcharges: In order to account for the rising costs of aviation insurance, Air Canada along with other North American carriers have implemented an insurance surcharge. This insurance surcharge is $3.00 (CAD), each way for travel wholly within Canada. (Some exceptions apply).


4) Air Travellers Security Tax (ATSC): The Canadian Parliament has enacted an Air Travellers Security Charge (ATSC) to fund security personnel and security equipment in response the the events of September 11. For domestic itineraries, the ATSC tax is $7.00 (CAD) one way or $14.00 (CAD) return. For transborder itineraries, the ATSC tax is $12.00 (CAD) one way or $24.00 (CAD) return. For international itineraries, the ATSC tax is $24.00 (CAD) for each return or one-way trip.

5) Airport Fees: Many airports in Canada and around the world have implemented Airport Improvement Fees (AIF). Some Airports collect these fees at the airport at time of departure, other''s are collected at the time of ticketing and are reflected in the taxes in your fare. Canadian Airports that include the AIF on your ticket are as follows: (All amounts CAD)
There range from as low as $5 to as high as $15

6) Taxes: provincial (fedeaal where applicable) plus other international
 

FrugalFlyer

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Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/15/2003 7:54:13 PM stud_lee wrote:
You might be right with aviation related taxes. They could be similar, but are you just referring to flights on both US and Canadian airlines going between the US and Canada? Do the same levies apply to carriers from both countries? I’m pretty sure domestic flights within the US aren’t as heavily taxed, at least that is my impression when I fly. I’d like to see the breakdown (and amount) of US aviation taxes within the US for curiosity’s sake.
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I was just trying to make a counter-point to a statement viggen597 made: "Im sure you know, but Canada imposes so many taxes and fees that Canadian air travel is slumped because its simply not worth it to fly."

My point being that in general Canadian vs USA taxes are not significantly different. I''m not very familiar with the taxes/fees/surcharges levied in the USA, and would be interested in the breakdown. If somebody could provide it that would be great - i.e. I''m too lazy to do the research myself.

Getting back to jetBlue - I think they could make YYZ-JFK and YHM-FLL work, but it would not be a cakewalk, AC and Westjet would not just roll over - at least in theory.
 

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