Judge wants Congress to fix Love Field again

[swamt]

More than likely will NOT happen, but there is a chance it could, a very slight chance.  As it is stated in this article NONE of the parties involved with the WARA agreement can pursue changes, however, depending just how bad Delta wants to grow and add flights at Love Field, Delta could very well kick start it to happen.  At least outsiders are starting to see that the restrictions at DAL are too much and already outdated.  The question here is, could it start a possible restructure of the restrictions?  What about other airlines that would want to fly out of DAL? They too could get involved in the possibility of opening it up for changes to allow room for other airlines at DAL.  Interesting to say the least...
 
A judge wants Congress to fix Love Field again, but it's not gonna happen
 
Local politicians react to judge's opinion to lift restrictions at Dallas Love Field

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

We needed a 4th thread (on the first page of the Southwest forum, not including the ones on the Delta forum) on this issue?

 

[eolesen]

Admittedly, repealing or changing WARA might be worth its own discussion.

The others all deal with the need for the courts to interpret current law. They can't change it.

If Congress were to step in, everything changes, and the lawsuits might just go away.

But, that all assumes that Congress has the will to act, and that the locals don't go crazy over more flights & more road traffic.

The whole notion of compromise means nobody gets what they wanted, and at the end of the day, WARA is the result of not closing DAL 40+ years ago as it should have been.

 

[swamt]

Yes E. That is why I kept them separated.  They are 2 separate issues.  I also find it interesting that this option is already coming out so early in this game.  If Herb was still here he would git-er-done...

 

[swamt]

Here is more on the re-opening of the W/A.  Nice to finally see some hard numbers after first year of the revised W/A at both airports.  If the media will keep up with this and keep it alive in the media it might help the push of getting rid of W/A in full or at least go back to the original 32 gates and let other airlines move in, win-win for all, even DFW...
 
Year 1 after Wright: a win-win for both North Texas airports

 

[FWAAA]

Here is more on the re-opening of the W/A.  Nice to finally see some hard numbers after first year of the revised W/A at both airports.  If the media will keep up with this and keep it alive in the media it might help the push of getting rid of W/A in full or at least go back to the original 32 gates and let other airlines move in, win-win for all, even DFW...
 
Year 1 after Wright: a win-win for both North Texas airports

As I posted in the DL forum where you posted this same article:

There's a zero chance of DFW Airport agreeing to more gates at DAL, and the five-party agreement gives each party veto power over amendments. What would motivate DFW (or AA, for that matter) to grant its consent and agree to allow 32 gates?

 

[metopower]

As I posted in the DL forum where you posted this same article:There's a zero chance of DFW Airport agreeing to more gates at DAL, and the five-party agreement gives each party veto power over amendments. What would motivate DFW (or AA, for that matter) to grant its consent and agree to allow 32 gates?

I get it. Why would ANY airline that is a signature to that agreement want more competition? Self serving ? Maybe?

 

[FWAAA]

I get it. Why would ANY airline that is a signature to that agreement want more competition? Self serving ? Maybe?

Without the 20-gate limitation agreed to in 2006, AA and DFW would have never consented to the five-party agreement and it's very likely that Southwest would still be living under the Wright Amendment's restrictions. Of course DFW and AA didn't want the competition, but were willing to live with an end to the Wright Amendment as long as DAL did not see unlimited growth.

Sure, it's anti-competitive and would violate the Sherman Act if Congress hadn't blessed it with the WARA in 2006. Local politics is often unfair.

 

[swamt]

As I posted in the DL forum where you posted this same article:

There's a zero chance of DFW Airport agreeing to more gates at DAL, and the five-party agreement gives each party veto power over amendments. What would motivate DFW (or AA, for that matter) to grant its consent and agree to allow 32 gates?

Not so quick there. DFW has in fact benefited off the W/A being reworked, has it not? The article I posted said and listed DFW prevailed greatly from the W/A being reworked.  As far as AA is concerned, they want back in at DAL very badly as they have said and tried again before.  If more gates were opened AA could move in, Delta wants to expand at DAL, this would allow them to expand, Virgin also wants to expand this would allow them to expand, other airlines want in at DAL and this would allow them too as well.  SWA would LUV to expand and yet again by adding the additional 12 gates at DAL would allow this to happen. So as far as the airlines, I think it could happen to allow more compatition at DAL. Now, as far as DFW getting any more benefits from more gates added, well your probably right, it may not add any more bennies to DFW than it already has.  So I answered a motivation for AA to possibly to agree, but DFW would in fact be a long shot, agree with you there.  Over here I am just a little moved by the judge and others at least looking at opening it all back up, not saying it is going to happen for sure.  It will be a very, very large struggle to endure, but do you not agree that it could possibly happen?  As an employee of SWA, I would LUV to see ALL restrictions at DAL be gone, international flights return, and the gate for gate restrictions gone by the waste side, but that's a huge dream...

 

[FWAAA]

Not so quick there. DFW has in fact benefited off the W/A being reworked, has it not? The article I posted said and listed DFW prevailed greatly from the W/A being reworked.

I read the article, and DFW did see additional passengers in the past year, but correlation is hardly evidence of causation. During periods of economic growth, DFW always sees more passengers than the year before. AA's new Asian flights from DFW plus the QF A380 to SYD will draw more passengers thru DFW.

Thing is, if the Wright Amendment were still in place, the growth at DAL would have been much less, probably in line with its historical growth during economic good times. Removing the restrictions obviously caused DAL to experience huge passenger growth but that isn't evidence that the slight increase in DFW passengers is because of the DAL growth.

As far as AA is concerned, they want back in at DAL very badly as they have said and tried again before.  If more gates were opened AA could move in, Delta wants to expand at DAL, this would allow them to expand, Virgin also wants to expand this would allow them to expand, other airlines want in at DAL and this would allow them too as well.  SWA would LUV to expand and yet again by adding the additional 12 gates at DAL would allow this to happen. So as far as the airlines, I think it could happen to allow more compatition at DAL. Now, as far as DFW getting any more benefits from more gates added, well your probably right, it may not add any more bennies to DFW than it already has.  So I answered a motivation for AA to possibly to agree, but DFW would in fact be a long shot, agree with you there.  Over here I am just a little moved by the judge and others at least looking at opening it all back up, not saying it is going to happen for sure.  It will be a very, very large struggle to endure, but do you not agree that it could possibly happen?  As an employee of SWA, I would LUV to see ALL restrictions at DAL be gone, international flights return, and the gate for gate restrictions gone by the waste side, but that's a huge dream...

AA isn't chomping at the bit to see DAL expanded to more than 20 gates - if some of those 20 gates are available, of course it wants to control them. If something happened that caused WN to have to abandon 4 of its gates, then yes, AA would probably fight tooth and nail to get them. Big difference.

Yes, Southwest and many of its employees would love to see 32 (or 64) gates at DAL, but without the consent of DFW Airport, the City of Fort Worth and American Airlines, it's not going to happen.

 

[swamt]

I read the article, and DFW did see additional passengers in the past year, but correlation is hardly evidence of causation. During periods of economic growth, DFW always sees more passengers than the year before. AA's new Asian flights from DFW plus the QF A380 to SYD will draw more passengers thru DFW.

Thing is, if the Wright Amendment were still in place, the growth at DAL would have been much less, probably in line with its historical growth during economic good times. Removing the restrictions obviously caused DAL to experience huge passenger growth but that isn't evidence that the slight increase in DFW passengers is because of the DAL growth.


AA isn't chomping at the bit to see DAL expanded to more than 20 gates - if some of those 20 gates are available, of course it wants to control them. If something happened that caused WN to have to abandon 4 of its gates, then yes, AA would probably fight tooth and nail to get them. Big difference.

Yes, Southwest and many of its employees would love to see 32 (or 64) gates at DAL, but without the consent of DFW Airport, the City of Fort Worth and American Airlines, it's not going to happen.

The fares coming down at DFW were related to the W/A being changed which did help increase passengers at DFW.  And yes you are correct that DFW does grow some year over year. I didn't mean to make it sound like the W/A change was the sole reason, sorry bout that.
AA has already tried twice to get back in at DAL thru public records during this long fight about the gates and leases and since the 5 party agreement was signed.  And I agree with you on AA would more than likely fight tooth and nail if 4 gates came available, but in my opinion it would for 2 reasons mainly, 1-to keep Delta from getting them, and 2- AA also has many loyal passengers that would prefer to fly closer to DT Dallas to reduce time for traveling as well as not dealing with all the traffic from DFW to DT Dallas.
Of coarse SWA employees would love it, as would other airlines employees that were able to get in which would greatly increase options for everyone.  And your correct again about all parties would have to sign off on this deal which could be extremely hard to do...

 

[swamt]

Below is a great article on how the W/A has helped, along with lower fuel prices, and the growth of ULCC's at DFW, has allowed fares to continue to come down from small percentages to rather large percentages at Both DAL and DFW.  I still say removing all restrictions and opening up DAL to more gates and open to allow ULCC's to come in will be a win-win as shown in this article with just the revised W/A...
 
North Texas airfares down dramatically since Wright Amendment ended

 

[FWAAA]

The fares coming down at DFW were related to the W/A being changed which did help increase passengers at DFW.  

<snip>

Of course SWA employees would love it, as would other airlines employees that were able to get in which would greatly increase options for everyone.  And your correct again about all parties would have to sign off on this deal which could be extremely hard to do...

 

Below is a great article on how the W/A has helped, along with lower fuel prices, and the growth of ULCC's at DFW, has allowed fares to continue to come down from small percentages to rather large percentages at Both DAL and DFW.  I still say removing all restrictions and opening up DAL to more gates and open to allow ULCC's to come in will be a win-win as shown in this article with just the revised W/A...

I disagree that the end of the Wright Amendment has been the primary driver for lower metroplex fares; here is an article discussing the "Spirit Effect" which also applies to Frontier and other ULCCs:

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Study-The-Spirit-Effect-lowers-fares-spurs-demand

Spirit is bad news for American and it's bad news for Southwest.

Above, you said that opening up DAL for more gates would allow ULCCs to come to DAL, and then you said that would be a "win-win." I really don't think you mean that, because as a Southwest employee who probably wants higher wages, like most of your colleagues do, lower fares are NOT good. What you want to see are higher fares, which will enable WN to pay you more $$$. If DAL is opened up to more competition, and fares fall even further, you won't get raises. What inevitably happens to airlines with high wages and declining fares? Not something the WN employees ever want to experience.

About WN bringing down metroplex fares: I thought DAL was desirable for all those Dallas-area business people and residents, and if it is, then WN doesn't have to offer bargain-basement fares to attract them, right? Before GK changed Southwest's philosophy of avoiding congested airports like LGA, DCA, BOS, PHL, etc, WN would offer cheap fares to help attract customers to the outlying, less convenient secondary airports WN used instead of the congested slot-controlled airports that it avoided.

Now that WN doesn't have a huge labor cost advantage (nor the legendary fuel hedging advantage of 10-15 years ago), WN can't afford to offer bargain basement fares to attract people to fly its airplanes at the congested convenient airports. For several years now, WN has attracted higher intra-Texas fares from DAL and HOU than AA or UA from their bigger hub airports of DFW and IAH. Intra-Texas, WN is the high fare airline, but that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

Yes, consumers would benefit from even more lower fares at DAL and DFW, but AA and WN would not benefit from lower fares. WN would obviously love to have 64 gates at DAL, but not if it had to share them with any other airline, let alone ULCCs.

 

[eolesen]

Good points, yet Spirit and Frontier were conspicuously absent from the bidding for the AA gates. They seem to be entirely satisfied staying at DFW, which is arguably a lower cost airport.

 

[swamt]

 

I disagree that the end of the Wright Amendment has been the primary driver for lower metroplex fares; here is an article discussing the "Spirit Effect" which also applies to Frontier and other ULCCs:

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Study-The-Spirit-Effect-lowers-fares-spurs-demand

Spirit is bad news for American and it's bad news for Southwest.

Above, you said that opening up DAL for more gates would allow ULCCs to come to DAL, and then you said that would be a "win-win." I really don't think you mean that, because as a Southwest employee who probably wants higher wages, like most of your colleagues do, lower fares are NOT good. What you want to see are higher fares, which will enable WN to pay you more $$$. If DAL is opened up to more competition, and fares fall even further, you won't get raises. What inevitably happens to airlines with high wages and declining fares? Not something the WN employees ever want to experience.

About WN bringing down metroplex fares: I thought DAL was desirable for all those Dallas-area business people and residents, and if it is, then WN doesn't have to offer bargain-basement fares to attract them, right? Before GK changed Southwest's philosophy of avoiding congested airports like LGA, DCA, BOS, PHL, etc, WN would offer cheap fares to help attract customers to the outlying, less convenient secondary airports WN used instead of the congested slot-controlled airports that it avoided.

Now that WN doesn't have a huge labor cost advantage (nor the legendary fuel hedging advantage of 10-15 years ago), WN can't afford to offer bargain basement fares to attract people to fly its airplanes at the congested convenient airports. For several years now, WN has attracted higher intra-Texas fares from DAL and HOU than AA or UA from their bigger hub airports of DFW and IAH. Intra-Texas, WN is the high fare airline, but that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

Yes, consumers would benefit from even more lower fares at DAL and DFW, but AA and WN would not benefit from lower fares. WN would obviously love to have 64 gates at DAL, but not if it had to share them with any other airline, let alone ULCCs.

Did you not read my post you answered?  I never said that the W/A changes were the primary reasons for the growths at both airports. Matter fact I said exactly what you said. My first sentence reads as follows;  "Below is a great article on how the W/A has helped, along with lower fuel prices, and the growth of ULCC's at DFW"  I mentioned all 3 variables that have contributed to the fares coming down and the traffic increases at both DFW and DAL airports. Note: the W/A, helped, does not mean it was the primary factor, all 3 that I listed were all factors involved, I really don't see where someone got that I wasn't including all 3 variables and how someone took my posting as the W/A was the primary factor of fares and growth in the DFW metroplex. 
Now as far as the fares and wages are concern, I believe SWA has added more passengers by lowering the fares after W/A was done. DAL's load factor has dramatically increased from around 68% to 78% prior to W/A to mid 90's% and still staying solid in the 90's.  And yes of coarse raising fares would be even better, but SWA needs to be careful about raising the fares too much.  Now that DAL is pretty much at it's full capacity it would be extremely tough to add as many passengers as did after W/A again. 
Even more factors were involved with the total profit margins gained by SWA. More seats, larger a/c, more efficient a/c, international growth, new cities etc...
And is correct, I too was a little surprised they did not get involved with the bidding for the AA gates. I thought for sure Spirit was going to get involved, or maybe Jet Blue, but kinda glad now that they did not. Still waiting to see how well Virgin will end up doing at DAL and if they will end up staying or reverting back to DFW, I doubt it but they are still tweaking their routes and schedules to compete more efficiently with SWA.