Just some food for thought....
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Hatu said:
"Your faith is a joke" must rationally be balanced with the equally valid observation that atheism must necessarily be also a joke, since no mortals can know the validity of either premise....Just sayin'....Personally? I'm with Mr. Condell in assigning a great deal of historical and present evil to organized "religion", but I can easily see lives lived purely for the purposes of individual gratification to be without much merit as well.
While it's not really true that "there are no atheists in foxholes", well...I've never seen such much comforted by their "beliefs" or "faith" when imminent death was a distinct possibility....just sayin'....
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Ms Tree said:
"My parents were as close to death as most will ever get." That's perhaps the most hopelessly naive line ever written Tree, unless you're assuming personal immortality here. I hate to break this to you, but we all die. It's been my experience that the knowledge of that being a very real and immediate possibility does sometimes make a great difference in people's belief structures. I mean no disrespect to anyone who's faith, or lack thereof differs. We all die "alone", no matter our surroundings, in that there's no more personal journey possible besides being born, and we must all come to grips with that when needed.
No ill will intended, nor missionary efforts of any kind. I certainly don't have any "answers," having not yet taken that final "trip" myself...and the "after-action" reports from those that have seem surprisingly scarce.
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Dog Wonder
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You state there has been and is presently evil to organized religion followed by the statement that lives lived purely for the purposes of individual gratification to be without much merit as well. What comparison are you making? I know what the statement means, just wondering who you think are the people who live lives purely for the purposes of individual gratification? Is this a blanket statement about a particular group of people or just a statement about individuals from a cross-section of culture who live hedonistic lives?
It is not true at all. A list of a few atheists in foxholes:
http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/
Example:
Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Christine Legawiec
Board Member
Specialty: C-130 Pilot
Dates of Service: 1996-present
Decorations: Aerial Achievement, Meritorious Service, GWOT Service
Tours of duty: Kuwait, 2000; Balkans, 2000-2005; OEF, 2001-2005; OIF, 2003-2004, ONE, 2008
No atheists in foxholes? Really? So when things get tough I'm supposed to forget my training, put away my courage and just pray? No way. I have to count on me, on my crew, and on my fellow service members to do our jobs to the best of our ability. Our lives depend on it. If you stop performing the mission to pray, you are putting all of us at risk.
Ms Tree
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I think there are far more agnostics and atheists than people realize. Given the stigma attached to 'not believing' I think many do not want to come out and admit it. I get weird looks from people here in TX when I tell them I'm agnostic. Some think it is the same as being an atheist, others have no clue what it means. My brother in law went from devout believer to atheist, at least he claims to be an atheist. I think he is agnostic but whatever. Mrs. Tree is also agnostic.
I think that people who experience life altering moments like my parents, the women who were held captive for years, terminal illness or similar tend to go one extreme or the other. Either they become a hard core beleiver or they become atheist/agnostic.
Either way, I think there are a lot more of us then people realize.
I think that people who experience life altering moments like my parents, the women who were held captive for years, terminal illness or similar tend to go one extreme or the other. Either they become a hard core beleiver or they become atheist/agnostic.
Either way, I think there are a lot more of us then people realize.
Interesting perspective from Elizabeth Smart, kidnapped for nine months:
Elizabeth Smart, a Salt Lake City girl who was kidnapped and held for nine months as a 14 year-old in 2002, said recently that the sexual abuse she received from her captors made her feel worthless.
Smart said she grew up in a Mormon family and was taught through abstinence-only education that a person whose virginity was lost before marriage was considered worthless. She spoke after a forum on human trafficking at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore about a school teacher who urged students against premarital sex and compared women who had sex before their wedding nights to chewing gum.
"I thought, 'Oh my gosh, I'm that chewed up piece of gum, nobody re-chews a piece of gum. You throw it away.' And that's how easy it is to feel like you no longer have worth, you no longer have value," Smart said. "Why would it even be worth screaming out? Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued? Your life still has no value."
http://news.discovery.com/human/psychology/missing-women-why-took-so-long-to-escape-130507.htm
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Some more food for thought!--------- An interview with obama's older half brother: -------- http://allenbwest.com/2015/04/bombshell-interview-malik-obama-says-barack-is-cold-and-ruthless/
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Hatu said:
"So when things get tough I'm supposed to forget my training, put away my courage and just pray?" That's childishly nonsensical. What does ANY aspect of personal spirituality have to do with "forget my training, put away my courage"? All I'd suggest is that when potentially imminent personal extinction's in the mix, that many of us mere humans find ourselves reaching for something far beyond just "me" when/if even a few moments of precious time allows. Whatever one chooses to call such, be it God or whatever, or what "flavor" of "religion" is involved matters not at such moments....Period. Umm..Perhaps a few more far experienced liberals that've been in anything even approaching proverbial "foxholes" might offer up more "enlightened" opinions than I have to offer....?
"Decorations: Aerial Achievement, Meritorious Service, GWOT Service"...? No disrespect intended, but that's hardly an overly impressive display, and not one wholly indicative of a lot of time in "foxholes" just of it's self.
Contrast any minor medals and "bling" with General "Stonewall" Jackson's beliefs, which, most very certainly, NEVER included any concept of "forget my training, put away my courage and just pray"..."General?..How is it you can keep so serene?...And stay so utterly insensible with a storm of shells and bullets raining about your head?" 4:04 into the clip, I give you one of America's finest fighting men's witnessed and quoted thoughts on a battlefield, and inserted into a movie long afterwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaFj1u-fk7I
"Jackson's Faith was infectuous. It was contagious. he did not push it on his men, but they saw it and they saw him exhibit the Faith...." It's perhaps worth notng that General Jackson's forces routinely routed or even essentially destroyed numerically far superior northern forces on many occassions.
P.S. "How is it you can keep so serene?...And stay so utterly insensible with a storm of shells and bullets raining about your head?" was never my forte....more the case of "the cowardly lion" just playing the role that was needed to do at the time. The whole gettin' killed thing, if at ALL decently avoidable, just honestly held little appeal for me personally.
