Lawsuit Updates

L1011Ret

Veteran
Oct 31, 2002
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The TWA pilots lawsuit against APA, AA and ALPA has been decided by an Appeals Court ruling dismissing the charges against AA and APA but finding the charges against ALPA have merit.

An Oral hearing was held in the Eastern District US Federal court in Brookln on Tuesday. Judge Gershon presiding. There were 9 lawyers, Moldoff and Katz for APFA, ? who looked like Crandall for AA, S. Cooper and J. Allen for TWA, and three lawyers for one of the nAAtive RA suits. There were about 30 TWAers present, VP APFA and two others who appeared to be connected to APFA. This writer attended. At issue is whether the promises made to TWAers represented by IAM before the closing of the purchase are issues under the Railway labor Act or can be tried as a promise (like a binding contract) for damages. Remember these various promises were made in exchange for TWAers dropping their demand for Allegheny-Mohawk arbitration. AA and APFA say these promises are RLA issues while the TWAers say that the RLA covers only employees and the TWAers were not employed by AA or TWA LLC at the time. The Judge said at the end, "there are important legal issues to resolve." This was the issue the lawyers were arguing about. There are other charges in the lawsuit which were not argued. It is expected the Judge will rule by the end of the year. Many outcomes are possible. I suspect some charges will be sustained and perhaps others will get thrown out. If the TWAers prevail on any charge, I believe they will take it to trial as soon as possible.
 
Just out of curiosity, what do the plaintiffs excpect to recieve out of this? Will it help an already seriously crippled airline? Will it help them get their jobs back? What good can seriously come out of this except the satisfaction of saying , see we were right you were wrong and padding the lawyers pockets, in addition to draining cash out of organizations that are already drained.
 
This is just a question and I'm not meaning to start anything but...Isn't APFA trying to work on a way that in case the same thing happens to AA that happened to TWA that in an aquisition or merger the AA f/a's seniority would be retained or protected?
If APFA feels it is wrong for us to protect our interests why is it okay for them?

If the shoe were on the other foot would AA f/a's roll over and take it like a man, accept their fate, let it go? I don't think so.
 
SkyLiner said:
This is just a question and I'm not meaning to start anything but...Isn't APFA trying to work on a way that in case the same thing happens to AA that happened to TWA that in an aquisition or merger the AA f/a's seniority would be retained or protected?
[post="196172"][/post]​
Of course. Let's all take out our contracts and read Article I. It's a couple of pages of fine print, but this sentence jumps out at me:
The company shall not finally conclude a transaction under this subsection unless the transferee agrees to integrate the transferring Flight Attendants into the Transferee's Flight Attendant seniority list pursuant to sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs.

MK
 
That is correct Mark, That language was added in negotiations during the Hedges administration, prior to the offer to by the assests of TWA by AA. It was not actually ratified until after the purchase and agreements and offers were set up by AA.
 
SkyLiner said:
This is just a question and I'm not meaning to start anything but...Isn't APFA trying to work on a way that in case the same thing happens to AA that happened to TWA that in an aquisition or merger the AA f/a's seniority would be retained or protected?
If APFA feels it is wrong for us to protect our interests why is it okay for them?

If the shoe were on the other foot would AA f/a's roll over and take it like a man, accept their fate, let it go? I don't think so.
[post="196172"][/post]​
Sky, APFA has never felt protecting its members was wrong or not worth the trouble. That is why Denise got that language added. Yea APFA attendants would be protected in an acquisition, but like TW only to the point the article containing the language is left in tact. We could certainly be in the same situation you all were in a few years ago.

Keep in mind APFA did not require a reworking of your CBA and cancellation of certain clauses in it. That was AA. It was never the responsibility of APFA to look out for your interest until you were released by the IAM and became members of this organization.
 
FA Mikey said:
Sky, APFA has never felt protecting its members was wrong or not worth the trouble. That is why Denise got that language added. Yea APFA attendants would be protected in an acquisition, but like TW only to the point the article containing the language is left in tact. We could certainly be in the same situation you all were in a few years ago.

Keep in mind APFA did not require a reworking of your CBA and cancellation of certain clauses in it. That was AA. It was never the responsibility of APFA to look out for your interest until you were released by the IAM and became members of this organization.
[post="196194"][/post]​

I'm just trying to understand this. If APFA has protected its members and obviously feels it would be unjust and unacceptable for its membership to be stapled to an aquiring airline how is it that we are the bad guys for challenging them for doing it to us? Isn't this hypocritical? Yes or No.
 
SkyLiner said:
I'm just trying to understand this. If APFA has protected its members and obviously feels it would be unjust and unacceptable for its membership to be stapled to an aquiring airline how is it that we are the bad guys for challenging them for doing it to us? Isn't this hypocritical? Yes or No.
[post="196201"][/post]​
Its no more no less than when you all waived the scope and protection clauses and yet still expected to have them to be used and be protected by them. It is on both parts. IAM and APFA.
 
FA Mikey said:
Its no more no less than when you all waived the scope and protection clauses and yet still expected to have them to be used and be protected by them. It is on both parts. IAM and APFA.
[post="196206"][/post]​

So...If Apfa was forced to do the same thing...they would accept the outcome and not challenge?
 
SkyLiner said:
So...If Apfa was forced to do the same thing...they would accept the outcome and not challenge?
[post="196207"][/post]​
I really don't know. I would say yes, but that's my opinion, I have said that I would not expect to be put above employees of an acquiring company. Maybe in the future company's will go the way of SWA and offer nothing more than an interview to the employees of the carrier they are buying. Those who are hired are given the DOA as DOH.
 
FA Mikey said:
I really don't know. I would say yes, but that's my opinion, I have said that I would not expect to be put above employees of an acquiring company. Maybe in the future company's will go the way of SWA and offer nothing more than an interview to the employees of the carrier they are buying. Those who are hired are given the DOA as DOH.
[post="196209"][/post]​


So you're saying that in your opinion your union would not fight at all costs for your membership if the same thing happened to you? Interesting...

I'm just trying to understand all sides of this mess.
 
SkyLiner said:
So you're saying that in your opinion your union would not fight at all costs for your membership if the same thing happened to you? Interesting...

I'm just trying to understand all sides of this mess.
[post="196218"][/post]​
I am saying yes the union likely would. I would not. I dont expect to come in to a new company and be put ahead of those already there. Thats my opinion.
 
I agree with Mikey, the APFA might fight for our seniority rights. let's say if BA bought us out, but I would never expect them. I would be happy of the fact that I had a job left. I know most of you don't have one, but you will. It has been said over and over and over again on this board, if you are looking for job security, the most assinine thing you could ever do is work for an airline. I know this is a very heated issue for those AA f/a's who worked for TWA, but this is my truth as I see it.
 
Sheesh. Three years later and people are still arguing.

No small wonder that Airtran doesn't want ATA's aircraft and employees...
 
Former ModerAAtor said:
Sheesh. Three years later and people are still arguing.

No small wonder that Airtran doesn't want ATA's aircraft and employees...
[post="196309"][/post]​

I wasn't aware that anyone was arguing, just trying to understand each other.
 

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