LCC plan and the bankruptcy judge

Ukridge

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Aug 27, 2002
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Question for those of you in the know. What latitude does the bankruptcy judge have with the LCC plan? What I mean is that the judge''s mandate seems to be to ensure the viabilty of the airline and to position it for an exit from Chp 11. Does the judge have the discretion to look at the seperate LCC and dissaprove of the idea? Can he make changes to the plan after inputs from the unions, creditors, and other parties? If he sees offers from other parties that are inimicable to a succesful exit can he rebuff them?
What is the latest as to where things stand? It seems to have been quiet the last few days and that seems to mean something is a-brew.
 
OP
Ukridge

Ukridge

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Aug 27, 2002
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Ah, the response is overwhelming! So in addition to the above listed enquiries I will also submit the question as to the exact level of needed capacity that is needed in the U.S. market? With many aircraft parked in your deserts just how much capacity needs to be drawn out of the system before it reaches its blance point? Is it not rather odd that that number touted by the critics seems to perfectly match that of what United supplies? Interesting that when another carrier parks an airplane that this United number does not change.
I am starting to believe that irrespective of how many aircraft are parked by other airlines, these "others" are simply pushing for the eradication of Airways AND United.
 

Segue

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Oct 31, 2002
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Nobody really knows that answer, but the number I've heard from various sources is that capacity system wide in the US needs to be reduced by 10-20%. I suspect its a game of attrition now, and competitors will certainly benefit from an earlier, rather than later, demise of a major carrier.
 

ual747mech

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Nov 26, 2002
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This might answer your question in your top post.

The following information
is provided by Rich Delaney,
District Lodge 141 AGC


February 23 2003

If there is still any doubt in anyone's mind of the purpose and intent of the bankruptcy judge, Friday's court hearing should end it. Judge Wedoff made two rulings on Friday that are classic examples of what bankruptcy is all about. The first issue was the dispute about CEO Tilton's employment contract. The AFA had protested the terms of Tilton's deal and told the judge he should send a message to United and other corporations that CEOs should not be feeding at the trough while the employees are forced to take cuts and face job loss. Judge Wedoff said he wasn't there to send messages, just determine if the Tilton deal made business sense and aided United to emerge from bankruptcy. He decided that the pay package the Company reached with Tilton didn't hurt their chances to recover from Chapter 11 and he approved it. The second issue concerned the continued sale of ESOP stock. State Street Bank had asked the judge to lift the ban on further sale of UAL stock from the ESOP so that the employees still holding the remaining shares would see some return before bankruptcy made the stock totally worthless. United has said that the sale of ESOP stock would cause a change in ownership of the outstanding shares and prevent the Company from using their current losses, called Net Operating Loss (NOL's) to offset future tax payments. Judge Wedoff again ruled in favor of the Company claiming that the money owed to the employees was insignificant compared to the benefit United will get from the NOL's that will allow them to retain future earnings instead of paying taxes.
It is clear from these two examples that the judge and the court system do not take into consideration the employees' concerns when deciding business issues. Fairness to employees and the concept of shared sacrifice do not impact the courts actions.
Also on Friday a report was published that claimed the unions, including the IAM, were looking for other investors to put money into United and replace Tilton. The IAM immediately denied any such action. Gerry Greenwald, who was named in the report as one of the potential investors, also said the article was inaccurate. The idea that there are other, more attractive lenders available is not likely at this time. First, they would need an extraordinary amount of money now. They would have to buy out the existing DIP lenders at about $1.5 Billion before ever investing a dollar into the operation. The belief that the employees would not be asked to take as big a hit as the current Term Sheet proposes by another investor is not likely, either. In fact, a new investor would almost certainly demand greater cuts from the employees due to the extra money needed to buyout the DIP lenders. What is a strong possibility is that potential investors, like Greewald, would be interested in putting money into United as they emerge from bankruptcy, not before.

Abbreviated talks continued last week, hampered by the winter storms throughout the East which prevented some key members of the negotiating team from arriving in Chicago until later in the week. The discussions still center on the issues of work rules and job assignments, rather than money issues. President Canale reported that although the issues are difficult and the Company has increased the target dollar amount for labor savings, some progress is being made. Whether or not enough progress is made in order to reach an agreement prior to March 15th is still unknown.
Representatives from each union met again last week to review the status of insurance plan proposals. Each union now has a clear understanding of each other's current plan and will use portions of each plan to develop an alternative proposal to United's Term Sheet.
Negotiations are planned to resume again next week. District 141-M has also scheduled talks for next week.

United followed the lead of industry leader ATA (?) and imposed a $3.00 per ticket fuel surcharge early last week. By Friday, the industry had increased the fuel charge to $10.00 each way, which United also implemented. Northwest Airlines finally matched the industry increases after blocking planned ticket price increases for the last year or so. NWA now says they need the revenue improvements this surcharge will bring but are only assessing it to discounted tickets. Since it should not take any more fuel to carry a discounted passenger maybe the airlines are finally realizing that if fares continue to be held at the lowest price in 15 years nobody will make any money and bankruptcies will become a way of life.

United announced some of the changes planned for the April schedule which shows a continued shifting of flights away from mainline trips to regional jets. No station closings were announced at this time. A review of the schedule shows United increasing flying into stations that will take advantage of the USAirways codesharing.

Rich
 

wts54

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Sep 16, 2002
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Why are the IAM such liars there has been
no negotiation since the week before last.
SF walked out in ORD when he concluded the
company didnt really want to negotiate.UAL
still insists on the plan sheet they showed
to all of us.
 

wts54

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Sep 16, 2002
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I am not going to tell you who
it is.Do you always have to be
a smart ass??The IAM local officials
where I'm at were there when Scotty Ford
walked out.Mr. Ford is the lead negotiator.

Are you managemet United Chicago because you
sound like a management lackey?
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/2/2003 1:29:58 PM wts54 wrote:

I am not going to tell you who
it is.Do you always have to be
a smart ass??The IAM local officials
where I'm at were there when Scotty Ford
walked out.Mr. Ford is the lead negotiator.

Are you managemet United Chicago because you
sound like a management lackey?
----------------
[/blockquote]

That was District 141 AGC Rich Delaney of Local 1782, the Passenger Contact Employee local. I think he gives good info, he puts out weekly update on their website. I agree, 141M lack good information for their members that's why I go to Local 1782's website for information. I agree that District 141M lacks a good leader, I don't think Scotty Ford is the right person to lead the membership unlike the leaders of District 141.

Wts, you seem to be stuck on hating the IAM. If Scotty Ford was wearing an AMFA label, would you feel differently about him? With any Union or anything else, it takes a good leadership.
 

UnitedChicago

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Aug 27, 2002
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wts writes:

"I am not going to tell you who
it is.Do you always have to be
a smart ass??The IAM local officials
where I'm at were there when Scotty Ford
walked out.Mr. Ford is the lead negotiator.

Are you managemet United Chicago because you
sound like a management lackey?"

Once again...I do not work for United. I am a loyal cusomer - premier executive. And I don't want to get into a pissing match.

Your statement that "SF" walked out over two weeks ago and no negotiations have occured since - is quite bold. Funny that the press - that basically reports any time someone sneezes at United - hasn't reported this dramatic "walk out". In addition, recent press releases and comments from the IAM leadership has expressed positive negotiations and progress.

So me calling you out on your unsubstantiated report of the IAM walking out and not negotiating for two weeks make me a smart ass?

Show me some credible proof.
 

wts54

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Sep 16, 2002
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ual747mech,you dont know what I like or dont like pal,
but the truth is S.Ford is negotiating for 141m and he hasnt been there since the week before last when he walked out.Rich represents rampers and the rest.
I didnt say I didnt like Mr.Ford I dont know him
personally.
 

UnitedChicago

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Aug 27, 2002
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wts:

You say that I poo poo opinion I don't like. Well - with all due respect - you put forth your opinion as fact: the IAM has walked out and no negotiations have occured for two weeks.

If I knew for a fact that the IAM has walked out and nothing has been negotiated for two weeks - I'd be the first to discuss that situation.

Show me proof. Can you? I say can you? And I don't care about names - I never asked for any names.

Yes, maybe I was a little dramatic in asking if you were the lead negotiatior in my rebuttal, but you made a very bold statement with no back-up. Why can't I meet you at your boldness and ask if you were the lead negotiator?

And yes...I'm a premier exec with an emotional tie. My father is a retired employee.

We can bicker all day...but i want you all to make it. I'm sorry if you think I'm being a smart ass or jabbing at you wts. :)
 

wts54

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Sep 16, 2002
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You are more than a customer you said youre father is
retired from Ual.Like Bob O. said if an opinion is posted you dont like you try making your chicken s**t
snide remarks.If you dont like what somebody says disagree but spare me youre little jabs.What you know
about UAL you could write on the palm of your hand.No
I'm not going to name any names.Believe or not I dont care.
As for your smart ass remark "are you a lead negotiator"
how do you know I'm not or that I dont know ONE OF THE NEGOTIATORS ??You want his name and phone number to??
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/3/2003 12:29:43 AM wts54 wrote:

ual747mech,you dont know what I like or dont like pal,
but the truth is S.Ford is negotiating for 141m and he hasnt been there since the week before last when he walked out.Rich represents rampers and the rest.
I didnt say I didnt like Mr.Ford I dont know him
personally.

----------------
[/blockquote]

That's not what I am saying buddy. What I notice about you is that you seem to be stuck on hating the IAM and it is clouding your mind. True, Rich doesn't represent the Mechanics but don't you think his info give you an idea what is going on right now with the current situation? Like I said whatever Union or Assiociation your affiliated with, it takes good leadership, I'm pretty sure District 141M is negotiating with the company. They have to, because the deadline is getting near. "Would you rather have the judge decide instead?"
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/3/2003 10:02:44 AM Ukridge wrote:

Well, can any one suggest any Internet sites where I could seek the answer to the questions I posed above? Without sounding snide, this forum used to present reasonable debate where one was able to post questions and seek answers. Now it just seems to have develoved into a place of poor puncutation and personal attacks. Somewhere there must be a place where information can be obtained?
----------------
[/blockquote]

Was my post helpful Uk? Did that give you an idea what the Judge does in Bankruptcy Court? Btw, those aren't poor punctuations. Those are typos
 
OP
Ukridge

Ukridge

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Aug 27, 2002
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Well, can any one suggest any Internet sites where I could seek the answer to the questions I posed above? Without sounding snide, this forum used to present reasonable debate where one was able to post questions and seek answers. Now it just seems to have develoved into a place of poor puncutation and personal attacks. Somewhere there must be a place where information can be obtained?