Looking for an answer

[Garfield1966]

OK, I have asked this question before and I do not recall if I ever got an answer so I will try it again,

Why should any employer be forced to negotiate with it’s employees over work rules, wages, benefits or what have you? I do not care that there were sweat shops back in the 1800’s or that children were working in industries where they should not have been. What organized labor did back then was a good thing. This is 2006. Lets move on.

My opinion is that government should be held accountable for the work conditions and rules. The mining accidents in SAGO should never have happened. The union dropped the ball and what ever agency should be over seeing the mines (OSHA?) should both be keel-hauled.

Having said that, I decide to start a widget manufacturing plant in Never Never land. I figure out my cost and I decide that I need 100 people to work the line. I decide that my budget allows for them to be paid $x.xx a hour. Several years go by and the 100 employees decide that they want a 20% raise because the widget manufacture down the street is making 15% more than they are. They tell me that if I don’t cough up the cash, they will not show up for work. Fine, I tell them, there is the door, enjoy your self. I’ll see if there is anyone else out in the world who is willing to work for $x.xx an hour.

It is my company. Why should I not be able to fire who I want when I want and pay what I want? If you as an employee feel that you can make more money else where, go for it. That is the free market system. That’s how it works. If I as an employer cannot get enough people to work for me at what ever salary I am offering, I will either have to cough up more money, or go out of business.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

OK, I have asked this question before and I do not recall if I ever got an answer so I will try it again,

Why should any employer be forced to negotiate with it’s employees over work rules, wages, benefits or what have you? I do not care that there were sweat shops back in the 1800’s or that children were working in industries where they should not have been. What organized labor did back then was a good thing. This is 2006. Lets move on.

My opinion is that government should be held accountable for the work conditions and rules. The mining accidents in SAGO should never have happened. The union dropped the ball and what ever agency should be over seeing the mines (OSHA?) should both be keel-hauled.

Having said that, I decide to start a widget manufacturing plant in Never Never land. I figure out my cost and I decide that I need 100 people to work the line. I decide that my budget allows for them to be paid $x.xx a hour. Several years go by and the 100 employees decide that they want a 20% raise because the widget manufacture down the street is making 15% more than they are. They tell me that if I don’t cough up the cash, they will not show up for work. Fine, I tell them, there is the door, enjoy your self. I’ll see if there is anyone else out in the world who is willing to work for $x.xx an hour.

It is my company. Why should I not be able to fire who I want when I want and pay what I want? If you as an employee feel that you can make more money else where, go for it. That is the free market system. That’s how it works. If I as an employer cannot get enough people to work for me at what ever salary I am offering, I will either have to cough up more money, or go out of business.

Nothing wrong with that at all. NWA is a case in point. NWA wasn't willing to negotiate fairly, AMFA wasn't willing to work for what NWA was offering. AMFA went on strike, NWA hired replacements and their maintenance division has suffered for their short sightedness. Its the free market. Enjoy.

 

[wonderboy]

Nothing wrong with that at all. NWA is a case in point. NWA wasn't willing to negotiate fairly, AMFA wasn't willing to work for what NWA was offering. AMFA went on strike, NWA hired replacements and their maintenance division has suffered for their short sightedness. Its the free market. Enjoy.

It doesn't GET any better than that dude! BRAVO!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

OK, I have asked this question before and I do not recall if I ever got an answer so I will try it again,

Why should any employer be forced to negotiate with it’s employees over work rules, wages, benefits or what have you? I do not care that there were sweat shops back in the 1800’s or that children were working in industries where they should not have been. What organized labor did back then was a good thing. This is 2006. Lets move on.

My opinion is that government should be held accountable for the work conditions and rules. The mining accidents in SAGO should never have happened. The union dropped the ball and what ever agency should be over seeing the mines (OSHA?) should both be keel-hauled.

Having said that, I decide to start a widget manufacturing plant in Never Never land. I figure out my cost and I decide that I need 100 people to work the line. I decide that my budget allows for them to be paid $x.xx a hour. Several years go by and the 100 employees decide that they want a 20% raise because the widget manufacture down the street is making 15% more than they are. They tell me that if I don’t cough up the cash, they will not show up for work. Fine, I tell them, there is the door, enjoy your self. I’ll see if there is anyone else out in the world who is willing to work for $x.xx an hour.

It is my company. Why should I not be able to fire who I want when I want and pay what I want? If you as an employee feel that you can make more money else where, go for it. That is the free market system. That’s how it works. If I as an employer cannot get enough people to work for me at what ever salary I am offering, I will either have to cough up more money, or go out of business.

===========================================================

FYI Garfield(THE MOVIE)1966,

After you told the 100 employees(who asked for more money), to "PISS OFF", 3 people went out on IOD, 2 on Family Leave, and 1 just filed a sexual harrasment suit against your "top" supervisor/Slave driver

Good luck !!

NH/BB's

Ps, your stock in "Widgetco"(WCO), just "tanked" 11% today, over projected productivity Issues.
(Something about widely reported "foul" management/labor relations)

 

[High Iron]

It is my company. Why should I not be able to fire who I want when I want and pay what I want?

I think that's a specious argument. NWA ( or any othe airline ) isn't some family business funded by internal capital...it isn't "their" airline. The CEO's are only hired guns, which further complicates the relationship with the BOD and stockholders, what with the symbiotic "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" relationship between upper mangement and the BOD. And as we've seen with the rash of failing/shrinking airlines giving yet larger perks to the pinstripes...as losses deepen, the "needs" of the company are largely irrelevant. It's all about them.

 

[AMFAMAN]

It is my company. Why should I not be able to fire who I want when I want and pay what I want?

There is good reason this just happen to be your "666" post. :down: Funny how those things work out.

Garfield1966 Yesterday, 05:54 PM Post #1


Veteran


Group: Registered Member
Posts: 666
Joined: 7-April 03
Member No.: 2,085

 

[ramblingray]

OK, I have asked this question before and I do not recall if I ever got an answer so I will try it again,

Why should any employer be forced to negotiate with it’s employees over work rules, wages, benefits or what have you? I do not care that there were sweat shops back in the 1800’s or that children were working in industries where they should not have been. What organized labor did back then was a good thing. This is 2006. Lets move on.

My opinion is that government should be held accountable for the work conditions and rules. The mining accidents in SAGO should never have happened. The union dropped the ball and what ever agency should be over seeing the mines (OSHA?) should both be keel-hauled.

Having said that, I decide to start a widget manufacturing plant in Never Never land. I figure out my cost and I decide that I need 100 people to work the line. I decide that my budget allows for them to be paid $x.xx a hour. Several years go by and the 100 employees decide that they want a 20% raise because the widget manufacture down the street is making 15% more than they are. They tell me that if I don’t cough up the cash, they will not show up for work. Fine, I tell them, there is the door, enjoy your self. I’ll see if there is anyone else out in the world who is willing to work for $x.xx an hour.

It is my company. Why should I not be able to fire who I want when I want and pay what I want? If you as an employee feel that you can make more money else where, go for it. That is the free market system. That’s how it works. If I as an employer cannot get enough people to work for me at what ever salary I am offering, I will either have to cough up more money, or go out of business.

Now mix in the fact that you have foreign competition bringing in the widgets at 15% less than you and now your health insurance quote is 64% higher than last year. How dare you even think to push 1 red cent off on to your employees. I could not agree more with your post. Bottom line. Advertise what you pay, show the benefits and there will always be people willing to work for your company. Like this strike has shown.....People are always willing to work for good pay and benefits. Just like the so called line crossers and replacements. But when the union keeps pumping the job for more than is economically pheasable, sometimes things just bust. HOWEVER - This is a direct result of Foreign Open Trade. They have not pumped their residents up to the income standards that we currently enjoy. When that heppens, things will even out. Remember When we all thought Japan was going to take over the world with their low priced goods infiltrating the US in the 70'2 and 80'2? Now look at them, their wages are higher than ours.....Their economy is in the dumps.

Most of the people who were working for NWA have probably found new jobs, less stress and much more happy. NWA is more happy as well with the cost savings. I would like to know if most people found work in the same field? And more importantly is the pay and benefits comparable? Honestly. If you had a magic wand, would they have voted to strike or not if they had to do it all over again?

 

[High Iron]

Now mix in the fact that you have foreign competition....HOWEVER - This is a direct result of Foreign Open Trade. They have not pumped their residents up to the income standards that we currently enjoy. When that heppens, things will even out.

Yes yes, as the uber capitalists like to say "...In the long run, it will all even out". But as J.M. Keynes so astutely pointed out "In the long run, we're all dead". I cannot see how some some can have such a rigidly fundamentalist view of the economy that they're willing to be martyrs to an ideology...come hell or high water. Either martyrs, or more accurately, blindly optimistic free-market fundamentalists who are more than willing to throw huge blocs of wage earners under the bus ( wage earners that drove the economy BTW ) because they figure at the very least, it oughtta be good for their portfolios.

Some wonks have surmised the corporation today holds the same influence as the church did in the middle ages. Quite clear that's the case.

Since you brought up foreign competition ( and by extension, "globalism" ) I'd like to call to attention a shift in an old paradigm. This has head the effect of severely weakening the "What's good for the corporation is good for you" plattitude. Not necessarily anymore. Oh, I'm sure their quarterlies are improving, and life for the "chiefs" in mirrored mid-rises are great, but this in no way assuages the loss of buying power by the "indians". Henry Fords ex-employees won't be buying black Model T's anymore.

 

[PhxMama]

You want the power to pay and treat your employees whatever you choose but you want the government to take responsibility for your incompetence. You only want to pay x amount and than you want MY tax dollars to oversee you because you choose not to spend the money for safe working conditions.

 

[High Iron]

You want the power to pay and treat your employees whatever you choose but you want the government to take responsibility for your incompetence. You only want to pay x amount and than you want MY tax dollars to oversee you because you choose not to spend the money for safe working conditions.

Interesting isn't it? How does it go? "Privatize the gain/Socialize the pain?"

 

[Kev3188]

It is my company.

In the case of NWA, it would not be your company per se. Obviously, it's a publicly held corporation, which includes (at least up until the BK filing) a large chunk of shares held by the employees. So in this case, yes, they do/did have some say in company affairs. The broken promises tied to that stock issuance is a story for another thread.

Kev's Busiess 101: Ruling by fiat is a recipe for decreased productivity, high turnover/attrition, and increased costs.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Garfield, your theory(ies) was tried out many years ago and the result was the Great Depression of the 1930's and early 1940's. If the outsourcing and wipe out of the middle class wages and benefits continues, we will see the Greatest Depression. That may not be such a bad thing, because then I can watch Garfield,PTO, and Former Moderator fighting for a position in the soup line. I think that would be fun and entertaining don't you?

 

[Garfield1966]

You want the power to pay and treat your employees whatever you choose but you want the government to take responsibility for your incompetence. You only want to pay x amount and than you want MY tax dollars to oversee you because you choose not to spend the money for safe working conditions.

Well, yes. Do you want the airlines to be in charge of monitoring their own safety? Do you want mining operators to be in charge of their own safety? There needs to be a 3rd party to over see the corporate world in terms of safety.

I as a corporate owner will not spend any more than required by city/state or federal regulations.

 

[Garfield1966]

In the case of NWA, it would not be your company per se. Obviously, it's a publicly held corporation, which includes (at least up until the BK filing) a large chunk of shares held by the employees. So in this case, yes, they do/did have some say in company affairs. The broken promises tied to that stock issuance is a story for another thread.

Kev's Busiess 101: Ruling by fiat is a recipe for decreased productivity, high turnover/attrition, and increased costs.

But isn’t that the point? If I as a corporate owner do not pay a fair wage or supply other benefits that are the industry average I will eventually be faced with 2 options. Adjust the compensation to my employees to industry standards (or what ever the market will bear) or go out of business for lack of quality which seems like it is happening at NWA.

The wages which are being commanded in this country by blue collar workers is substantially higher than that of the wages in other countries. Kind of like the diffusion process we learned about in science class, the salary base seems to be leveling it’s self out on a global scale. Unfortunately it seems to be going down quite a bit quicker for us than it is rising for the rest of the world.

Seems to be if the US had spent less time and money fighting ghosts and more time an money helping keep the countries at the bottom of the barrel above water level we might not be in this mess as well, but as stated earlier, that will be a different thread also.

Our cost of living is substantially higher than most places in the world. Most folks look for the best deal. Most of your clothing in your closet comes from China, Singapore, Thialand … etc. Toyota is set to be the largest auto manufacture in the world. There are no electronics manufactured / designed here in the US are there? We will shop at Wall-Mart or Target for the best deal. Yet everyone wants the money that they lost back. Where the hell is this money supposed to come from? Yea yea .. the execs can take a pay cut. I have not done the math but nothing I have read says that the (I’m guessing) 10% of the employees making lets say over $90k a year (do we include the pilots or not?) will be able to pay for the salary lost by the other 90%. So where is the money to come from?

We live in a world that is becoming smaller and smaller. We as a nation failed to look ahead and plan for the future and now we pay for it. Salaries in a lot of industries are going down. We have competition that we cannot beat. He who has the cheaper product will win. Does management need to be cut? Yes. Does labor need to be cut? Well does it? Are you going to admit that it needs adjustment as well or are you going to pretend that it is all managements fault and labor is as pure as the driven snow?

Would I like my pay cut back .. gee let me think about that and get back to you. AA is not offering me or anyone else here any more money. I would not think of walking in to my bosses office and say either we get this this and this or we all walk. I evaluate my needs and when the time comes that this job no longer cuts it I will tender my 2 weeks notice and move on. For me, it is that simple. Kind of like the relationship between a parent and child. I do not negotiate with my children. My child does not dictate the wage that he gets for house hold chores. Yes I know that he does not have the ability to seek different employment with another family but I think you get my point. Yes I know there are BOD’s to deal with and stock holders to deal with but again, I think you understand the point I am seeking to make. I do not feel it is just for one group of employees to be able to hold a company hostage. What say do I have in this? None.

In the case of NWA, it would not be your company per se. Obviously, it's a publicly held corporation, which includes (at least up until the BK filing) a large chunk of shares held by the employees. So in this case, yes, they do/did have some say in company affairs. The broken promises tied to that stock issuance is a story for another thread.

Kev's Busiess 101: Ruling by fiat is a recipe for decreased productivity, high turnover/attrition, and increased costs.

But isn’t that the point? If I as a corporate owner do not pay a fair wage or supply other benefits that are the industry average I will eventually be faced with 2 options. Adjust the compensation to my employees to industry standards (or what ever the market will bear) or go out of business for lack of quality which seems like it is happening at NWA.

The wages which are being commanded in this country by blue collar workers is substantially higher than that of the wages in other countries. Kind of like the diffusion process we learned about in science class, the salary base seems to be leveling it’s self out on a global scale. Unfortunately it seems to be going down quite a bit quicker for us than it is rising for the rest of the world.

Seems to be if the US had spent less time and money fighting ghosts and more time an money helping keep the countries at the bottom of the barrel above water level we might not be in this mess as well, but as stated earlier, that will be a different thread also.

Our cost of living is substantially higher than most places in the world. Most folks look for the best deal. Most of your clothing in your closet comes from China, Singapore, Thialand … etc. Toyota is set to be the largest auto manufacture in the world. There are no electronics manufactured / designed here in the US are there? We will shop at Wall-Mart or Target for the best deal. Yet everyone wants the money that they lost back. Where the hell is this money supposed to come from? Yea yea .. the execs can take a pay cut. I have not done the math but nothing I have read says that the (I’m guessing) 10% of the employees making lets say over $90k a year (do we include the pilots or not?) will be able to pay for the salary lost by the other 90%. So where is the money to come from?

We live in a world that is becoming smaller and smaller. We as a nation failed to look ahead and plan for the future and now we pay for it. Salaries in a lot of industries are going down. We have competition that we cannot beat. He who has the cheaper product will win. Does management need to be cut? Yes. Does labor need to be cut? Well does it? Are you going to admit that it needs adjustment as well or are you going to pretend that it is all managements fault and labor is as pure as the driven snow?

Would I like my pay cut back .. gee let me think about that and get back to you. AA is not offering me or anyone else here any more money. I would not think of walking in to my bosses office and say either we get this this and this or we all walk. I evaluate my needs and when the time comes that this job no longer cuts it I will tender my 2 weeks notice and move on. For me, it is that simple. Kind of like the relationship between a parent and child. I do not negotiate with my children. My child does not dictate the wage that he gets for house hold chores. Yes I know that he does not have the ability to seek different employment with another family but I think you get my point. Yes I know there are BOD’s to deal with and stock holders to deal with but again, I think you understand the point I am seeking to make. I do not feel it is just for one group of employees to be able to hold a company hostage. What say do I have in this? None.

 

[goingboeing]

OK, I have asked this question before and I do not recall if I ever got an answer so I will try it again,

Why should any employer be forced to negotiate with it’s employees over work rules, wages, benefits or what have you? I do not care that there were sweat shops back in the 1800’s or that children were working in industries where they should not have been. What organized labor did back then was a good thing. This is 2006. Lets move on.

My opinion is that government should be held accountable for the work conditions and rules. The mining accidents in SAGO should never have happened. The union dropped the ball and what ever agency should be over seeing the mines (OSHA?) should both be keel-hauled.

Having said that, I decide to start a widget manufacturing plant in Never Never land. I figure out my cost and I decide that I need 100 people to work the line. I decide that my budget allows for them to be paid $x.xx a hour. Several years go by and the 100 employees decide that they want a 20% raise because the widget manufacture down the street is making 15% more than they are. They tell me that if I don’t cough up the cash, they will not show up for work. Fine, I tell them, there is the door, enjoy your self. I’ll see if there is anyone else out in the world who is willing to work for $x.xx an hour.

It is my company. Why should I not be able to fire who I want when I want and pay what I want? If you as an employee feel that you can make more money else where, go for it. That is the free market system. That’s how it works. If I as an employer cannot get enough people to work for me at what ever salary I am offering, I will either have to cough up more money, or go out of business.

Yeah,pay your employees low wages and benefits and then con them into concessions so management can take more wealth out of the Company.[AMR Bonuses aka AMR Bonedus]
I think there is already a company like you describe called Wal-Mart.The sweat shop mentality is alive and well at places like Wal-Mart where they have forced employees to work off the clock and forfeit scheduled lunch breaks because the manager is too cheap to hire more cashiers.Everytime you use a self-serve checkout you have just eliminated another American job.Wal-Mart wants you to pay them money for doing their job for them.