Memorial Day

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
Today is Memorial day. A day we pause to give thanks to those who those who died in the service of our Nation, a Nation built upon the principles of Freedom and Equality. We thank them for their sacrifice and are obliged to ensure that their sacrifice was not in vain. We must continue the fight to preserve the values they died protecting.
 
Every one of those who served and died took the following Oath:
 
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God"

Notice what I bolded. There are enemies to Our Constitution in very high places in our Government, those who despise freedom and even more so, equality. There are those in our Courts and in our Government that are working very hard to curtail the rights of citizens while at the same time seek to grant legal persons ie corporations, rights above and beyond those of human citizens. The spectrum is broad, from those that endorse and promote trade agreements that strip us as a nation to require that our citizens compete on a level playing field, to those who try and find ways to deny citizens of their right to vote, but I want to take this opportunity to discuss one blatant abuse of government power that has affected many airline workers and can affect all of them. What I want to discuss is the fact that the courts have segregated Airline workers Unions from all other stakeholders for especially harsh treatment in C-11. While the law in its entirety needs to be reformed due to abuse one particular part is especially oppressive to airline workers unions and must be fixed right away before any more damage is done. What Im talking about here is only Unions in the airlines can be forced to accept contracts in C-11 Bankruptcy. Instead of being treated like all other creditors they are treated like criminals by the court, essentially blamed for the financial difficulties of the carrier without any proof whatsoever. In C-11 bankruptcy the courts allow the company to set whatever terms it wants, without limits, under current court interpretations there is nothing preventing an airline from imposing a permanent contract that would never become amendable or subject to section six negotiations. No other contract holder is subject to such terms. Every other contract holder, including non-union workers have the right to reject, terminate their contract and engage in self help. Except Unions.
 
This condition arose in 2007, when in order to avoid a strike the appellate court made a terribly bad ruling, and that ruling stands to this day. This is a crime and flies in the face of everything this country stands for, everything the people we pay tribute to today died for. The perpetrators of this crime were Judges Jacobs, Walker and Raggi of the Second district court. These people have no business sitting on the bench, their Juris prudence would better be suited to some despotic Junta than the democratic USA.
 
Their ruling came three decades after an equally bad ruling was made concerning the treatment of Airline workers under the Railway Labor Act (RLA). That ruling concerns Sect 1167, of Chapter 11 which is merely a reaffirmation of what is stated in the RLA, however when the courts disregarded the explicit language of the RLA and expelled us from 1167 they did not infringe upon the rights of Unions to reject terms offered by Bankrupt companies, in fact Unions were permitted and did engage in self-help when a carrier did attempt to impose new terms. The Court decided on their own that we were half in-half out of the RLA. In during regular negotiations, out when a carrier filed for C-11 Bankruptcy.
 
It wasn't until 2007 that the court determined that not only would Airline Workers not be subject to the status quo protections provided by the RLA but that C-11 would allow a carrier to impose whatever they wanted and the Union could not refuse or resort to self help. Unions were effectively stripped of all rights by the court. When your Union has been stripped of its rights then you as Union members have been stripped of your rights. This is the type of law making that those we honor today fought against, and its our duty to fight against it here at home.
 
We mustn't allow Judges to write the law based on what their Country Club buddies tell them they think it out to be. The Law should be what the people intend for it to be and the intent of the RLA was clear. We are either all in or all out, and that decision was made 80 years ago that we are all in. That includes in bankruptcy because bankruptcies were common before, during and after the RLA was crafted. If the authors of the law had intended an exclusion for bankruptcy they would have included it, in fact they wrote :
 
"No carrier, its officer, or agents shall change the rates of pay, rules, or working conditions of its employees , as a class, as embodied in agreements except in the manner prescribed in such agreements or in section 156 of this title"
 
And;
 
"Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act, except in accordance with section 6 of such Act."

The very first PEB reaffirmed that the only way to change rates of pay was through the section six process, during a recession in 1938 Railroads attempted to impose a cut in wages as a response to a recession, the PEB said that workers under the RLA should not be;
 
"indirectly taxed to keep the roads running[that during] sudden crises of short duration the shock must be taken by the ownership and not the wage structure."
 
We must not let this injustice go unchallenged. We owe it to those we honor today. The Pilots tried to change this back in 2009. Obviously they did not get far, that time they appealed to Congress sense of fairness and asked for protection, Congress did nothing, this time we must all go in and demand our rights, and be prepared to take action if we are not treated the same as everyone else, airline workers must not be willing to remain in the back of the bus. Since the Judges cant read then we need to fill in the blanks. We need for our legislators to make it as clear as possible we need for them to amend sect 1167 as follows;
 
"Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act, Subchapters I and II, except in accordance with section 6 of such Act".

The first step in this fight is education. Read the RLA yourself, read the appellate court decision in the NWA vs AFA case (483F3d 160) and the minutes of the Hearing (Serial No.111-61 dec 16 2009) where Congressmen facetiously mocked Capt Sullenbeger as he testified as to why this law needs to be corrected. Spread the discussion to co-workers, friends and family. This way if we are forced to take action people will have a pretty good idea why.
 
Then demand that your Unions start to aggressively pursue having the Government modify Sect 1167 to include the Airlines as was the intent of the RLA. Last time the Pilots did not get much support, the other Unions were more intent on changing the whole bankruptcy process and obtaining special protections for Unions instead of first at least making sure that all Unions are at least afforded the same rights. It is unlikely that Unions will get special protections after all only 7% of the private sector workforce belong to Unions, but everyone should have the same rights.
 
Finally, if our attempts at gaining equal rights in Bankruptcy fail then we need to pressure our Unions into talking organized action to disrupt the economy by selectively coordinating the withdrawl of our labor. That is exactly what led to the creation of the RLA and much of our Civil Rights legislation, it is a proven method. Why should we support a system that does not treat us as equals? That treats our desire to provide an acceptable and commensurate standard of living as subservient to a corporations desire for ever increasing profit margins?

They died to protect our rights and way of life. No one ever said because they died the fight would be over.
 
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robbedagain

Veteran
Oct 13, 2003
11,127
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It is bec of their sacrifices that we today enjoy our freedoms.  God Rest all of the Souls of all of those who have given their life so that we can enjoy our freedoms.   Thank you all in the US Armed Forces for all you have done to ensure our freedoms and rights are so rightfully protected. 
 
Happy Memorial Day
 
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Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
.


Today is Memorial day. A day we pause to give thanks to those who those who died in the service of our Nation, a Nation built upon the principles of Freedom and Equality. We thank them for their sacrifice and are obliged to ensure that their sacrifice was not in vain. We must continue the fight to preserve the values they died protecting.



Every one of those who served and died took the following Oath:



I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God"

Notice what I bolded. There are enemies to Our Constitution in very high places in our Government, those who despise freedom and even more so, equality. There are those in our Courts and in our Government that are working very hard to curtail the rights of citizens while at the same time seek to grant legal persons ie corporations, rights above and beyond those of human citizens. The spectrum is broad, from those that endorse and promote trade agreements that strip us as a nation to require that our citizens compete on a level playing field, to those who try and find ways to deny citizens of their right to vote, but I want to take this opportunity to discuss one blatant abuse of government power that has affected many airline workers and can affect all of them. What I want to discuss is the fact that the courts have segregated Airline workers Unions from all other stakeholders for especially harsh treatment in C-11. While the law in its entirety needs to be reformed due to abuse one particular part is especially oppressive to airline workers unions and must be fixed right away before any more damage is done. What Im talking about here is only Unions in the airlines can be forced to accept contracts in C-11 Bankruptcy. Instead of being treated like all other creditors they are treated like criminals by the court, essentially blamed for the financial difficulties of the carrier without any proof whatsoever. In C-11 bankruptcy the courts allow the company to set whatever terms it wants, without limits, under current court interpretations there is nothing preventing an airline from imposing a permanent contract that would never become amendable or subject to section six negotiations. No other contract holder is subject to such terms. Every other contract holder, including non-union workers have the right to reject, terminate their contract and engage in self help. Except Unions.



This condition arose in 2007, when in order to avoid a strike the appellate court made a terribly bad ruling, and that ruling stands to this day. This is a crime and flies in the face of everything this country stands for, everything the people we pay tribute to today died for. The perpetrators of this crime were Judges Jacobs, Walker and Raggi of the Second district court. These people have no business sitting on the bench, their Juris prudence would better be suited to some despotic Junta than the democratic USA.



Their ruling came three decades after an equally bad ruling was made concerning the treatment of Airline workers under the Railway Labor Act (RLA). That ruling concerns Sect 1167, of Chapter 11 which is merely a reaffirmation of what is stated in the RLA, however when the courts disregarded the explicit language of the RLA and expelled us from 1167 they did not infringe upon the rights of Unions to reject terms offered by Bankrupt companies, in fact Unions were permitted and did engage in self-help when a carrier did attempt to impose new terms. The Court decided on their own that we were half in-half out of the RLA. In during regular negotiations, out when a carrier filed for C-11 Bankruptcy.



It wasn't until 2007 that the court determined that not only would Airline Workers not be subject to the status quo protections provided by the RLA but that C-11 would allow a carrier to impose whatever they wanted and the Union could not refuse or resort to self help. Unions were effectively stripped of all rights by the court. When your Union has been stripped of its rights then you as Union members have been stripped of your rights. This is the type of law making that those we honor today fought against, and its our duty to fight against it here at home.



We mustn't allow Judges to write the law based on what their Country Club buddies tell them they think it out to be. The Law should be what the people intend for it to be and the intent of the RLA was clear. We are either all in or all out, and that decision was made 80 years ago that we are all in. That includes in bankruptcy because bankruptcies were common before, during and after the RLA was crafted. If the authors of the law had intended an exclusion for bankruptcy they would have included it, in fact they wrote :



"No carrier, its officer, or agents shall change the rates of pay, rules, or working conditions of its employees , as a class, as embodied in agreements except in the manner prescribed in such agreements or in section 156 of this title"



And;



"Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act, except in accordance with section 6 of such Act."

The very first PEB reaffirmed that the only way to change rates of pay was through the section six process, during a recession in 1938 Railroads attempted to impose a cut in wages as a response to a recession, the PEB said that workers under the RLA should not be;



"indirectly taxed to keep the roads running[that during] sudden crises of short duration the shock must be taken by the ownership and not the wage structure."



We must not let this injustice go unchallenged. We owe it to those we honor today. The Pilots tried to change this back in 2009. Obviously they did not get far, that time they appealed to Congress sense of fairness and asked for protection, Congress did nothing, this time we must all go in and demand our rights, and be prepared to take action if we are not treated the same as everyone else, airline workers must not be willing to remain in the back of the bus. Since the Judges cant read then we need to fill in the blanks. We need for our legislators to make it as clear as possible we need for them to amend sect 1167 as follows;



"Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act, Subchapters I and II, except in accordance with section 6 of such Act".

The first step in this fight is education. Read the RLA yourself, read the appellate court decision in the NWA vs AFA case (483F3d 160) and the minutes of the Hearing (Serial No.111-61 dec 16 2009) where Congressmen facetiously mocked Capt Sullenbeger as he testified as to why this law needs to be corrected. Spread the discussion to co-workers, friends and family. This way if we are forced to take action people will have a pretty good idea why.



Then demand that your Unions start to aggressively pursue having the Government modify Sect 1167 to include the Airlines as was the intent of the RLA. Last time the Pilots did not get much support, the other Unions were more intent on changing the whole bankruptcy process and obtaining special protections for Unions instead of first at least making sure that all Unions are at least afforded the same rights. It is unlikely that Unions will get special protections after all only 7% of the private sector workforce belong to Unions, but everyone should have the same rights.



Finally, if our attempts at gaining equal rights in Bankruptcy fail then we need to pressure our Unions into talking organized action to disrupt the economy by selectively coordinating the withdrawl of our labor. That is exactly what led to the creation of the RLA and much of our Civil Rights legislation, it is a proven method. Why should we support a system that does not treat us as equals? That treats our desire to provide an acceptable and commensurate standard of living as subservient to a corporations desire for ever increasing profit margins?

They died to protect our rights and way of life. No one ever said because they died the fight would be over. Just because SWA has been profitable that does not mean that they cant file for C-11 and do to you what other carriers did to their workers.
 
On the day AA filed for BK their projections showed them as a profitable carrier. In their proposal to mechanics their cost out included Profit Sharing at a quarter of a billion a year. They never said they were in danger of imminent  liquidation, they had financing in place for 500 new airplanes so they could not claim they were unable to get access to capital, their only claim was they felt they were not "competitive", and by competitive they said they needed to earn $2.8 billion a year in profits. Don't think that SWA management has not considered using BK to get their hourly rates closer to what everyone else is paying. This does affect you.
 
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Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
Today is Memorial day. A day we pause to give thanks to those who those who died in the service of our Nation, a Nation built upon the principles of Freedom and Equality. We thank them for their sacrifice and are obliged to ensure that their sacrifice was not in vain. We must continue the fight to preserve the values they died protecting.



Every one of those who served and died took the following Oath:



I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God"

Notice what I bolded. There are enemies to Our Constitution in very high places in our Government, those who despise freedom and even more so, equality. There are those in our Courts and in our Government that are working very hard to curtail the rights of citizens while at the same time seek to grant legal persons ie corporations, rights above and beyond those of human citizens. The spectrum is broad, from those that endorse and promote trade agreements that strip us as a nation to require that our citizens compete on a level playing field, to those who try and find ways to deny citizens of their right to vote, but I want to take this opportunity to discuss one blatant abuse of government power that has affected many airline workers and can affect all of them. What I want to discuss is the fact that the courts have segregated Airline workers Unions from all other stakeholders for especially harsh treatment in C-11. While the law in its entirety needs to be reformed due to abuse one particular part is especially oppressive to airline workers unions and must be fixed right away before any more damage is done. What Im talking about here is only Unions in the airlines can be forced to accept contracts in C-11 Bankruptcy. Instead of being treated like all other creditors they are treated like criminals by the court, essentially blamed for the financial difficulties of the carrier without any proof whatsoever. In C-11 bankruptcy the courts allow the company to set whatever terms it wants, without limits, under current court interpretations there is nothing preventing an airline from imposing a permanent contract that would never become amendable or subject to section six negotiations. No other contract holder is subject to such terms. Every other contract holder, including non-union workers have the right to reject, terminate their contract and engage in self help. Except Unions.



This condition arose in 2007, when in order to avoid a strike the appellate court made a terribly bad ruling, and that ruling stands to this day. This is a crime and flies in the face of everything this country stands for, everything the people we pay tribute to today died for. The perpetrators of this crime were Judges Jacobs, Walker and Raggi of the Second district court. These people have no business sitting on the bench, their Juris prudence would better be suited to some despotic Junta than the democratic USA.



Their ruling came three decades after an equally bad ruling was made concerning the treatment of Airline workers under the Railway Labor Act (RLA). That ruling concerns Sect 1167, of Chapter 11 which is merely a reaffirmation of what is stated in the RLA, however when the courts disregarded the explicit language of the RLA and expelled us from 1167 they did not infringe upon the rights of Unions to reject terms offered by Bankrupt companies, in fact Unions were permitted and did engage in self-help when a carrier did attempt to impose new terms. The Court decided on their own that we were half in-half out of the RLA. In during regular negotiations, out when a carrier filed for C-11 Bankruptcy.



It wasn't until 2007 that the court determined that not only would Airline Workers not be subject to the status quo protections provided by the RLA but that C-11 would allow a carrier to impose whatever they wanted and the Union could not refuse or resort to self help. Unions were effectively stripped of all rights by the court. When your Union has been stripped of its rights then you as Union members have been stripped of your rights. This is the type of law making that those we honor today fought against, and its our duty to fight against it here at home.



We mustn't allow Judges to write the law based on what their Country Club buddies tell them they think it out to be. The Law should be what the people intend for it to be and the intent of the RLA was clear. We are either all in or all out, and that decision was made 80 years ago that we are all in. That includes in bankruptcy because bankruptcies were common before, during and after the RLA was crafted. If the authors of the law had intended an exclusion for bankruptcy they would have included it, in fact they wrote :



"No carrier, its officer, or agents shall change the rates of pay, rules, or working conditions of its employees , as a class, as embodied in agreements except in the manner prescribed in such agreements or in section 156 of this title"



And;



"Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act, except in accordance with section 6 of such Act."

The very first PEB reaffirmed that the only way to change rates of pay was through the section six process, during a recession in 1938 Railroads attempted to impose a cut in wages as a response to a recession, the PEB said that workers under the RLA should not be;



"indirectly taxed to keep the roads running[that during] sudden crises of short duration the shock must be taken by the ownership and not the wage structure."



We must not let this injustice go unchallenged. We owe it to those we honor today. The Pilots tried to change this back in 2009. Obviously they did not get far, that time they appealed to Congress sense of fairness and asked for protection, Congress did nothing, this time we must all go in and demand our rights, and be prepared to take action if we are not treated the same as everyone else, airline workers must not be willing to remain in the back of the bus. Since the Judges cant read then we need to fill in the blanks. We need for our legislators to make it as clear as possible we need for them to amend sect 1167 as follows;



"Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act, Subchapters I and II, except in accordance with section 6 of such Act".

The first step in this fight is education. Read the RLA yourself, read the appellate court decision in the NWA vs AFA case (483F3d 160) and the minutes of the Hearing (Serial No.111-61 dec 16 2009) where Congressmen facetiously mocked Capt Sullenbeger as he testified as to why this law needs to be corrected. Spread the discussion to co-workers, friends and family. This way if we are forced to take action people will have a pretty good idea why.



Then demand that your Unions start to aggressively pursue having the Government modify Sect 1167 to include the Airlines as was the intent of the RLA. Last time the Pilots did not get much support, the other Unions were more intent on changing the whole bankruptcy process and obtaining special protections for Unions instead of first at least making sure that all Unions are at least afforded the same rights. It is unlikely that Unions will get special protections after all only 7% of the private sector workforce belong to Unions, but everyone should have the same rights.



Finally, if our attempts at gaining equal rights in Bankruptcy fail then we need to pressure our Unions into talking organized action to disrupt the economy by selectively coordinating the withdrawl of our labor. That is exactly what led to the creation of the RLA and much of our Civil Rights legislation, it is a proven method. Why should we support a system that does not treat us as equals? That treats our desire to provide an acceptable and commensurate standard of living as subservient to a corporations desire for ever increasing profit margins?

AA established that you can go into BK with $5billion in cash and walk out with $10billion. There is nothing stopping UAL from filing again, if they do wouldn't it be better not to have your hands tied behind your back? This law needs to be changed now, before more damage is done.
 

Glenn Quagmire

Veteran
Apr 30, 2012
4,841
4,428
That is quite a stretch from Civil Rights to bankruptcy law to Memorial Day, to Southwest Airlines.

Dramatic license maybe?
 
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WNMECH

Veteran
Feb 5, 2012
1,482
1,158
Bob Owens said:
.

Finally, if our attempts at gaining equal rights in Bankruptcy fail then we need to pressure our Unions into talking organized action to disrupt the economy by selectively coordinating the withdrawl of our labor. That is exactly what led to the creation of the RLA and much of our Civil Rights legislation, it is a proven method. Why should we support a system that does not treat us as equals? That treats our desire to provide an acceptable and commensurate standard of living as subservient to a corporations desire for ever increasing profit margins?

They died to protect our rights and way of life. No one ever said because they died the fight would be over. Just because SWA has been profitable that does not mean that they cant file for C-11 and do to you what other carriers did to their workers.
 
On the day AA filed for BK their projections showed them as a profitable carrier. In their proposal to mechanics their cost out included Profit Sharing at a quarter of a billion a year. They never said they were in danger of imminent  liquidation, they had financing in place for 500 new airplanes so they could not claim they were unable to get access to capital, their only claim was they felt they were not "competitive", and by competitive they said they needed to earn $2.8 billion a year in profits. Don't think that SWA management has not considered using BK to get their hourly rates closer to what everyone else is paying. This does affect you.
 
I agree that the bankruptcy process is being allowed to be used unjustly.
 
I disagree with your comparison of AA and SWA.
 
AA owed more money than they had, despite claims of profit forecasts.
SWA has a stellar balance sheet and has always handled their debt in a responsible way.
 
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WorldTraveler

Corn Field
Dec 5, 2003
21,710
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That is quite a stretch from Civil Rights to bankruptcy law to Memorial Day, to Southwest Airlines.

Dramatic license maybe?
in this case, UA.

Memorial Day is a special holiday but let's not try to hang more on it than what belongs there or diminish the significance for those who paid dearly for our freedoms.

And may they and their families receive the thanks of a grateful nation today.
 
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Bob Owens

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Sep 9, 2002
14,274
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Doesn't matter. There are no financial distress requirements to File for bankruptcy. The court operates under the assumption that no company would suffer the tarnishing of their reputation by filing for C-11 unless its the only way to remain solvent. They give the "debtor" the benifit of the doubt, thats why there is so much abuse. Reality has nothing to do with it, if they ask, and the Creditors committee approves , they get, especially from labor. Everyone else can refuse except Unions, Unions either willingly agree or the court will impose. There are no limits on what they can ask for either. Sure the law may use words such as "onerous" or "necessary" but subsequent courts have pretty much cast those standards aside.

I believe that SWA will likely go the C-11 route eventually if this is not changed. Right now you guys are over $10/hr more than AA, the largest carrier in the world. It puts SWA at a serious disadvantage. In 2001 SWA and AA mechanics made around the same. Once all airline wages have been lowered we will end up like the Rails were we end up in PEBs. So we can get this fixed and hopefully end up near you guys, or we can leave it like it is and have SWA bring you down to us.
 

WNMECH

Veteran
Feb 5, 2012
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Glenn Quagmire

Veteran
Apr 30, 2012
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Bob Owens said:
Doesn't matter. There are no financial distress requirements to File for bankruptcy. The court operates under the assumption that no company would suffer the tarnishing of their reputation by filing for C-11 unless its the only way to remain solvent. They give the "debtor" the benifit of the doubt, thats why there is so much abuse. Reality has nothing to do with it, if they ask, and the Creditors committee approves , they get, especially from labor. Everyone else can refuse except Unions, Unions either willingly agree or the court will impose. There are no limits on what they can ask for either. Sure the law may use words such as "onerous" or "necessary" but subsequent courts have pretty much cast those standards aside.
I believe that SWA will likely go the C-11 route eventually if this is not changed. Right now you guys are over $10/hr more than AA, the largest carrier in the world. It puts SWA at a serious disadvantage. In 2001 SWA and AA mechanics made around the same. Once all airline wages have been lowered we will end up like the Rails were we end up in PEBs. So we can get this fixed and hopefully end up near you guys, or we can leave it like it is and have SWA bring you down to us.
MEMORIAL DAY

"The origins of special services to honor those who die in war can be found in antiquity. The Athenian leader Pericles offered a tribute to the fallen heroes of the Peloponnesian War over 24 centuries ago that could be applied today to the 1.1 million Americans who have died in the nations wars: Not only are they commemorated by columns and inscriptions, but there dwells also an unwritten memorial of them, graven not on stone but in the hearts of men.

To ensure the sacrifices of America s fallen heroes are never forgotten, in December 2000, the U.S. Congress passed and the president signed into law The National Moment of Remembrance Act, P.L. 106-579, creating the White House Commission on the National Moment of Remembrance. The commissions charter is to encourage the people of the United States to give something back to their country, which provides them so much freedom and opportunity by encouraging and coordinating commemorations in the United States of Memorial Day and the National Moment of Remembrance.

The National Moment of Remembrance encourages all Americans to pause wherever they are at 3 p.m. local time on Memorial Day for a minute of silence to remember and honor those who have died in service to the nation. As Moment of Remembrance founder Carmella LaSpada states: Its a way we can all help put the memorial back in Memorial Day."

http://www.va.gov/opa/speceven/memday/history.asp?utm_source=3birds&utm_medium=Web&utm_campaign=AUBURNVW_Fun+Facts+About+Memorial+Day

I am simply amazed that someone would feel the need to start threads titled "Memorial Day" to rant about how you, and labor in general, got screwed in bankruptcy.

Aren't there enough threads about labor and bankruptcy?
 
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WNMECH

Veteran
Feb 5, 2012
1,482
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The first part of the original post should be in the Water Cooler.
 
The last couple lines are SWA discussion material.
 
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Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
Glenn Quagmire said:
That is quite a stretch from Civil Rights to bankruptcy law to Memorial Day, to Southwest Airlines.
Dramatic license maybe?
Maybe to you. Do you feel that our rights have not been set aside?

If you read the minutes from the Hearing the best the airline side could come up with is that non-union workers have new terms imposed on them as well. Unwittingly they made the argument as to why they need to be in a Union, because as far as Contractual rights those non-union workers are being treated the same as all other creditors, they have the right to terminate the contract and withdraw everything they provide, just as GECapital, Boeing, Airbus and Exxon does. Those entities all have the right to refuse the terms and withdraw everything they provide, Unions do not. The other response is that nothing is stopping any of us from quitting, but that is really evading the issue, the issue is contractual rights. A Union holds a collective bargaining agreement for its members, just as GE Capital, Boeing, Airbus and Exxon enter into agreements for the benefit of its shareholders. If the courts were to do the same thing to these corporations that they are doing to Unions then the response would be just as true and relevant if we were to say "If they don't like that their company is being forced to enhance the wealth of the debtor at your expense then you have the right to sell your stock". Obviously that would never fly, contracts are supposed to be held in high esteem, both parties enter into them voluntarily, bankruptcy was put in place to let debtors escape from contracts, never intended to allow debtors to impose new terms. Thats what the court has done.
 
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Bob Owens

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Sep 9, 2002
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WNMECH said:
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3ALUV&fstype=ii&ei=4VqDU7DLNYiNsgfZyoGYCQ
 
compare these. Check the annual data, it goes back past the filing.
 
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:AMR&fstype=ii
 
You are going to have a long wait if you are waiting for WN to go bankrupt.
 
You have too much faith in those reports. Keep in mind that the reporting system was designed to protect investors from a company painting too rosy of a picture, not the opposite. All SWA has to do is place an order for new aircraft and accelerate depreciation and claim it all in one year and they could look as broke as any other "debtor". back in 2003 AA claimed a loss of nearly $1billion in "Goodwill".
 
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Bob Owens

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Sep 9, 2002
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So in other words stay silent about our rights being attacked? Isn't having the right to speak out against such injustices what they fought for? What better way to honor them than to do that, go back to your BBQ and have another burger and beer?
 
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