Mgt Comp.. Is anyone this gullible??

retiredman

Member
Dec 17, 2002
29
0
[blockquote]
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On 2/28/2003 11:21:17 AM atc wrote:

With all respect, father, there is another way to view this announcement. A view that is not so dark and knee-jerk cynical. That is, this management team might sincerely be trying to lead by example. They face competing priorities and critical unknowns. However, they (I personally give Siegel most of the credit) truly recognize that any appearance of capitalizing financially while employees are going through truly gut-wrenching sacrifices would poison the labor-management relationship for years. And if you want to see the terminal result of a poisonous labor-management relationship, just gaze over to United...


US Airways has been dead man walking for years. Under most executive compensation packages, turning this mess around would result in considerable incentive bonii.

Great post ATC, I retired after 40 years, worked for and with many different superiors, none have ben as up-front and forward as Dave Siegel, We will all either prosper or fail under his leadership. I truly beleive we will succeed if we let the man lead.]
 

atc

Member
Aug 28, 2002
23
0
With all respect, father, there is another way to view this announcement. A view that is not so dark and knee-jerk cynical. That is, this management team might sincerely be trying to lead by example. They face competing priorities and critical unknowns. However, they (I personally give Siegel most of the credit) truly recognize that any appearance of capitalizing financially while employees are going through truly gut-wrenching sacrifices would poison the labor-management relationship for years. And if you want to see the terminal result of a poisonous labor-management relationship, just gaze over to United...

US Airways has been dead man walking for years. Under most executive compensation packages, turning this mess around would result in considerable incentive bonii.
 

fatherabraham

Veteran
Sep 27, 2002
814
354
US AIRWAYS FILES MANAGEMENT COMPENSATION PLAN
WITH COURT
US Airways has filed the management compensation
exhibit to its Plan of Reorganization with the U.S.
Bankruptcy Court, which provides in greater detail the
reductions and compensation guidelines that the
company is implementing. In recognition of the
significant employee interest as demonstrated by
workplace discussions, Internet message boards, and
questions directed to Dave Siegel, the company is
providing the following highlights:
--As previously reported, annual compensation and
benefit savings from management and executive
employees will average nearly $50 million per year and
total more than $300 million during the term of the
ATSB loan.
--Pay cuts implemented in the summer of 2002 for
management employees will remain in place for the full
term of the ATSB loan, with small annual increases
beginning in 2004 on the same terms as the
restructuring agreement with the Association of Flight
Attendants (AFA), so that pay levels are gradually
restored.
--Changes to health care premiums and coverage are
consistent with the increased contributions made by
other employee groups.
--Bonuses and other perks, including incentive
compensation payouts, have been eliminated through at
least 2004.
--Unlike other corporate restructurings, where
executives are rewarded for successful completion of
the bankruptcy process, there will be no stay
bonuses, retention bonuses, or guaranteed first year
bonuses for officers of the company. At United
Airlines, in comparison, management employees and
officers will share $22 million in retention and
emergence bonuses. At WorldCom, a pool of $25 million
to be distributed to 325 executives has been approved
by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court.
--The defined benefit retirement plan for senior
officers is being eliminated and replaced with a
defined contribution target benefit that mirrors the
company''s proposal to ALPA for a replacement pension
plan.
--A meaningful portion of management compensation will
be tied to the performance of the company''s stock.
Furthermore, potential stock and options grants
available for management has been reduced from 18
percent -- as agreed to under the original equity plan
sponsor with Texas Pacific Group -- to less than 8
percent of the total available stock of the company,
upon emergence. In comparison, all other employees
will hold approximately 32 percent of the new stock to
be issued, including 19.3 percent of the equity to be
granted to pilots.
--The overall management compensation plan upon
emergence is consistent with the philosophy that
management will share in the sacrifices. What this
management team is doing with its compensation is
unprecedented, just as what our employee groups have
done in granting concessions was also unprecedented.
End of Special Bulletin for Friday, Feb. 28, 2002
Corporate Communications/Telex:HDQCYUS/COMAT:DCA-H850
 

Tim Nelson

Veteran
Jan 5, 2003
10,919
4,871
Bartlett
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/28/2003 11:30:05 AM retiredman wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/28/2003 11:21:17 AM atc wrote:

With all respect, father, there is another way to view this announcement. A view that is not so dark and knee-jerk cynical. That is, this management team might sincerely be trying to lead by example. They face competing priorities and critical unknowns. However, they (I personally give Siegel most of the credit) truly recognize that any appearance of capitalizing financially while employees are going through truly gut-wrenching sacrifices would poison the labor-management relationship for years. And if you want to see the terminal result of a poisonous labor-management relationship, just gaze over to United...


US Airways has been dead man walking for years. Under most executive compensation packages, turning this mess around would result in considerable incentive bonii.

Great post ATC, I retired after 40 years, worked for and with many different superiors, none have ben as up-front and forward as Dave Siegel, We will all either prosper or fail under his leadership. I truly beleive we will succeed if we let the man lead.]

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[/blockquote]


I'm not sure how upfront management is here. For instance, the fact that your friend agreed to give Wolf and Gangwal $15 million a piece right before bankruptcy seems like treason against us the employees. I mean even the deal the IAM made with the company bonus thing is small compared to the package given to Wolf and Gangwal before bankruptcy.

Besides, wasn't this dance already played? I mean, I remember hearing about 2 years ago how Wolf and Gangwal were being paid modest. And stats even suggested it. I mean the compensaton packages were all laid out for reps to see, their stock options, etc.
But, in the end, new contracts are signed for the officers and new compensation or other packages are offered. And that doesn't include things we don't know.

IMO, todays release amounts to no more than another 'drunken promise in the dark'. And is exactly what one would expect. I suggest if management wants to really do its best then it seriously review the cost of SWA management, and not United's.

As a side, even though management is promising some things again with this redediction or recommittment of sacrifices, will they further define exactly what is included in their definition of the word, "perk" in the release?



Tim Nelson
IAMLC1487
 

fatherabraham

Veteran
Sep 27, 2002
814
354
Under topic subject i posted

"Mgt Comp.. Is anyone this gullible??"

Sorry to all those who buy into this statement, by default I am calling you gullible.

What i should have said, I am not gullible and will not accept this propaganda.
 

mrplanes

Advanced
Sep 17, 2002
224
0
But he said NOTHING about it did he geo? Not when it happened. Not in the above statement. Not when it was brought to light. Not ever. And that, in itself, is the problem. He won't address it. And that leads me to believe he is not the leader I had hoped for. Imagine for just a moment how Herb Kelleher would handle the situation.


BTW, did you see anywhere above how much these guys are making? And divide 8% of the new stock into the number of management eligible to receive it and tell me how they are sharing in the pain. The above newsblast is nothing we didn't already know in new words. He did NOT address the why, how, when, or where of the 35 mill crap. You can dismiss it if you want but the fact is that he has done nothing to quell the unrest that tidbit of information has caused.

This guy is like all the rest. I wonder what golden parachute is waiting for him and his minions that is hidden in the language of the lawyers. He is NOT being up front with us. If you think he is you are not dealing with reality. You are dealing in wishful thinking. Just as I and about 6000 other pilots were. But we see the real Dave now. And so should you.

mr
 

geo1004

Senior
Aug 22, 2002
288
0
The Wolf and Gangwal compensation packages were inked long before Dave arrived - probably when he was still pushin' rental cars at AVIS (or wherever he was). The notion that Dave came on board and decided to toss those two jokers a multi-million $ bonus is laughable.
 

Dea Certe

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
889
0
I swear, all I want in life right now is to see Wolf, Gangwal and Nagin do the Perp Walk on CNN. Or Fox. Or better yet, CNBC. Any channel.

It would be like putting the heads of criminals on a spike outside the wall of a city. Just a warning to other would-be crooks.
 

Dea Certe

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
889
0
Piney,

My point is: U was heading to BK. We were put in that position quicker due to the inaction/lack of leadership by Wolf, Gangwal and Nagin. They Knew the BK filing was minutes away, yet they took the money. It's like stealing from a blind man's cup. Immoral, unethical and should be illegal. They knew what was about to happen. They knew many jobs would be lost from people who have worked hard, slaved and given their very best to make U the "Carrier of Choice". People who have families to feed in an economy where jobs are scarce.

It's flat out criminal. No excuse or amount of philosophy is going to support their sheer greediness.

Like most of my coworkers, I do my best every day for my customers. I only expect to be paid a fair wage. I do my job. They didn't do theirs. In my opinion they stole money from an almost empty cash drawer. They did not contribute anything meaningful to our product or our company. They caused great harm to many workers. They deserve to be tarred and feathered.

 

delldude

Veteran
Oct 29, 2002
28,208
5,878
Downrange
www.youtube.com
[blockquote]
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On 2/28/2003 1:17:43 PM Dea Certe wrote:

I swear, all I want in life right now is to see Wolf, Gangwal and Nagin do the Perp Walk on CNN. Or Fox. Or better yet, CNBC. Any channel.
LIKE TO THE TUNE OF BAD BOYS/BAD BOYS
It would be like putting the heads of criminals on a spike outside the wall of a city. Just a warning to other would-be crooks.
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[/blockquote]
 
[blockquote]
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On 2/28/2003 1:59:27 PM
PineyBob wrote:

When you make under 50K as most airline workers do a 6 million dollar bonus package seem outrageous! But in todays world it isn't all that much.
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[/blockquote]

I agree, six million dollars in todays world is not all that much. That's why, the concept that the under $50k crowd makes too much is laughable. And then to ask us to live on less is criminal!

Yet when our fellow unionized, collage graduate, employees asked us to ruin our lives for the team, we did it (agianst our better judgement).

Yes, it is almost time for a criminal investation, but we'll have to wait.
Remember who the current Chairman of the Board is!
 

Dea Certe

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
889
0
Piney,

But the company did not honor our contracts. They forced us into concessions. They stole pensions and in many cases, our careers.

Wolf, Gangwal and Nagin did not produce. They failed to complete the UAL deal (something I didn't want anyway). They brought us the nightmare of Sabre, which at the time was just one step ahead of a beta version. They did start the fleet rationalization, but for heaven's sake, even I could have done that. Most employees had been saying we needed to that for some time.

They made costly mistakes, were awarded the PlaneBusiness Ron Allen award by Holly Hegeman and didn't take care of the core problems with the company. In my opinion, they didn't do an honest days labor during their entire time with US Airways.

On the other hand, our pilots, agents, mechanics, flight attendants and other employees showed up and did their jobs. Many of us have been with the company for more than 20 years. Wolf and Gangwal graced our workplace for six years or less. Now we are expected to pay for the damages.

Apparently there is no honor among thieves.

And no, I would not take money I didn't earn or deserve. But then, I'm an honorable person with a sense of decency. Obviously I would never make it in politics or Big Business. I'm proud of that.
 

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
7,784
456
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
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On 2/28/2003 3:22:39 PM PineyBob wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 2/28/2003 2:33:47 PM Dea Certe wrote:

Piney,

My point is: U was heading to BK. We were put in that position quicker due to the inaction/lack of leadership by Wolf, Gangwal and Nagin. They Knew the BK filing was minutes away, yet they took the money. It's like stealing from a blind man's cup. Immoral, unethical and should be illegal. They knew what was about to happen. They knew many jobs would be lost from people who have worked hard, slaved and given their very best to make U the "Carrier of Choice". People who have families to feed in an economy where jobs are scarce.

It's flat out criminal. No excuse or amount of philosophy is going to support their sheer greediness.

Like most of my coworkers, I do my best every day for my customers. I only expect to be paid a fair wage. I do my job. They didn't do theirs. In my opinion they stole money from an almost empty cash drawer. They did not contribute anything meaningful to our product or our company. They caused great harm to many workers. They deserve to be tarred and feathered.


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[/blockquote]

Respectfully I think if I was headed out the door and was offered a $15,000 package knowing that a mail clerk would lose his job because of it, I'd take the money. It was part of my deal when I got there. And I think most who post here would do the same. whether they admit it or not is another post.

Those three recto-cranial inversions had a contract. Just like you have a contract. The company honored their contract pure and simple. So if we wish to apply a uniform standard to both labor & management then we have to honor W &G's contract the same as we would honor the AFA's or IAM's contract. I don't like what happened either, but if you take the emotions out it was part of their pay deal.

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[/blockquote]

With utmost respect to you, and your drive to forever create balance between Management and Labor, our company was going off of a cliff according to mangement this summer. They had contracts; we have contracts, which under normal circumstances, would be honored. But, this was a unique, and dire situation that caused every labor group to come to the table and start eliminating portions of their contract, not only forfeiting future agreed to increases, but giving wages that placed most of the labor groups back 10 years. Now, I have lived long enough in life to know that not every thing in life is fair, but hell, this management should have made every attempt to be fair, and at the very, bottom least, to be forthright and tell us. Hey it was legal, but surely a grade "F" in Business Ethics, and especially in light of the pension crisis for the labor groups that the liability that management paraded as huge, and unrealistic. There is such a desparity between Labor entitlements and Senior management entitilements. Blantant hipocracy took place here!

Keep in mind, when we were going through OUR negotiations WE were NOT in BK either.

PS. And Bob, U Labor has experienced concessionary agreements in the past, especially in early 90s; it was not considered "union busting". The type of "hammering" and well-thought-out strategy by this new management team to force submission was a unique form of "union busting".
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/5.gif']
 

Zephyr

Advanced
Feb 11, 2003
108
0
[blockquote]
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On 2/28/2003 11:36:16 PM Dea Certe wrote:

Piney,

But the company did not honor our contracts. They forced us into concessions. They stole pensions and in many cases, our careers.

Wolf, Gangwal and Nagin did not produce. They failed to complete the UAL deal (something I didn't want anyway). They brought us the nightmare of Sabre, which at the time was just one step ahead of a beta version. They did start the fleet rationalization, but for heaven's sake, even I could have done that. Most employees had been saying we needed to that for some time.

They made costly mistakes, were awarded the PlaneBusiness Ron Allen award by Holly Hegeman and didn't take care of the core problems with the company. In my opinion, they didn't do an honest days labor during their entire time with US Airways.

On the other hand, our pilots, agents, mechanics, flight attendants and other employees showed up and did their jobs. Many of us have been with the company for more than 20 years. Wolf and Gangwal graced our workplace for six years or less. Now we are expected to pay for the damages.

Apparently there is no honor among thieves.

And no, I would not take money I didn't earn or deserve. But then, I'm an honorable person with a sense of decency. Obviously I would never make it in politics or Big Business. I'm proud of that.
----------------
[/blockquote]


Nicely said Dea!

Next time I see you at Starbuck's in the terminal, its on me!

Zeph
 

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
7,784
456
www.usaviation.com
I guess than Bob, you can accuse me as being the same as the pilots.

We, in PIT voted round #2 concessions DOWN. The marjority of the f/as voted this in for fear of "L". However, by a 9% margin. CWA, only voted this in by 5 votes.

So, you can see most of us had reached our "threshold" on round #2. Pilots have just arrived there.

The question was not whether we in PIT thought the co. was "bluffing"; we didn't care either way.

We will move forward from here, of course! But, rest assured, there will be no more concessions.

Good night, my friend; or should I say good morning.