Minimum Wage

[Leto2]

A friend and I have been discussing minimum wage lately. Although he is pretty conservative, he thinks that minimum wage is a good thing. His basic argument is that there are business owners who will take advantage of people by paying them an ultra-low wage. Some people are too incompetent to understand that they are the victims of low wage and won't look for better opportunities.

I think minimum wage is stupid for the following reasons:

1. Business owners should not be forced to pay employees more than the employees are worth. Market forces determine what an employee is worth, not the government. I think that there are plenty of ways people can make themselves more valueable: they can work harder, get more education, practice new skills, etc. If someone wants to get payed more then they should do something that will make them more valuable to their employer.

2. Minimum wage messes up the market in many different ways. First of all, although it is debatable (there is evidence on both sides), economic theory shows that minimum wage, a price floor, will lead to unemployment. IE, some people may get payed more than they are worth, but others will lose their job because of minimum wage.
It also messes up the prices of certain goods. For example, lets say blue widgets use a lot of low wage workers and the price of a blue widget is $1. Red widgets use workers that are payed slightly more and the price of a red widget is $2. If a minimum wage is enacted that forces higher wages to blue widget workers, but not red widget workers since they get payed more already, then the blue widget price will go up and red widgets won't go up. This makes blue widgets more expensive than they should be and will lead to economic inefficiencies. It is an unfair punishment to blue widget producers since red widget producers aren't directly affected.

3. There are better ways to help the poor than a minimum wage. Call it what it is--if it's welfare let's not hide it under the guise of MW. If the object is to help the poor, which it is, then lets do it through channels that directly help the poor and don't have as many negative effects (like messing up the economy). I personally think that private charities are the most efficient way, since they can be micromanaged and are more personal than govt handouts. Private charities can help the people that can't help themselves (people with low IQ's, etc.), but everyone else needs to work.

4. It's not fair to people who already get a higher wage. If someone gets $6.50 since they've worked with a company for a year and the wage is suddenly raised to $6.50, then they will be on equal ground with people that were making less than them before. They may get a slight raise, but employers will be reluctant to give further raises since their costs just went up. Again, people on the bottom are getting payed more than they are worth. Minimum wage rewards people who haven't earned a reward and punishes those who have.

5. The government doesn't have the right to force an employer to give charity wages. The governments power is derived from the people. If I don't have the right to force my neighbor to give to charity, then neither does the government.

6. Minimum wage makes the US less competitive. The same people that often whine about "outsourcing" also often support minimum wage. That's dumb.

7. Rarely do heads of household don't work for minimum wage, so it doesn't need to be a "living" wage. Minimum wage is for teenagers and people just entering the market. If a head of household is working for minimum wage, they should get some skills and climb the latter like everyone else has to do.

So that's what I think. I don't think that there is a very valid argument for minimum wage, especially if you agree with number 3. However, I'd like to hear the arguments for MW that the rest of you have.

 

[jimntx]

Judging from your other posts, I doubt you are looking for a discussion. You are looking for validation from other Neanderthal "conservatives" who have that modern-day "Christian" philosophy of "I got mine. Everyone I know who is the same skin color has theirs. Scr*w everybody else."

Or you are looking for an argument which will not change your opinion one whit.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

 

[Flying Titan]

Leto -
Just read your post. I disagree with most of what you wrote but don't have time to adquately reply, now. Will try later. Still, it's a good topic and you have raised several important aspects of the minimum wage that are worth discussion - and probably will be for a long time.

I hope jimntx is wrong and we actually see a decent exchange of ideas on this thread.

 

[Leto2]

Judging from your other posts, I doubt you are looking for a discussion. You are looking for validation from other Neanderthal "conservatives" who have that modern-day "Christian" philosophy of "I got mine. Everyone I know who is the same skin color has theirs. Scr*w everybody else."

Or you are looking for an argument which will not change your opinion one whit.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

And I suppose that if I accuse you of the same thing you'll deny it? I could say the same thing about almost anyone else on this forum, so I guess we should all just stop posting and preach to ourselves.
I don't pretend to be unbiased. However, I do like discussion because it points out the weaknesses in my arguments and allows me to reevaluate what a "good" argument is. I think that my posts have been pretty fair and backed by rational thought.
(The liberals on this forum have been very condescending lately. I'm sorry I'm a Neanderthal :blink: , but I think my arguments about minimum wage are more based on principles of government and economics than my "Christian philosophy".)

 

[Garfield1966]

In principle I thin k I agree with you. The thing is that ‘principle" includes a world were people treat everyone with respect and do not take advantage of others. A world were everyone has the same opportunities and chances as everyone else.

Unfortunately I do not believe that is the case. Yes there are Tiger Woods, Colin Powels, Alberto Gonzales of the world. There are always exceptions to the rule. As far as I am aware those who grow up on the wrong side of the tracks (white, black, Hispanic or other) do not have the same opportunities as those fortunate enough to go to Beverly high, Yale, MIT, USC or where ever. Working harder does not always work. This is not to say that the current system is flawless. I agree that there are far too many people who take advantage of the system so that they do not have to work.

In so far as the min wage is concerned, it is my belief that with out the safety net, there will be far to many people who through no fault of their own, will be working for wages inadequate to maintain a decent standard of living. I am not sure what the fix is. Eliminating it in my opinion is not the answer. The only folks who would benefit from that are businesses. Also, one other aspect to look at. Someone has to pick up our garbage, clean the offices… etc. If the wages to do those jobs are not enough to make a living on them, who does them? There are people out there who just do not have what it takes to be a rocket scientist or a CEO. Their station in life is lower on the ladder. I am not sure I am comfortable with telling them that sorry, I know you are trying your best but it just is not good enough so you will just have to live under this over pass because you cannot earn enough to have a roof over your head and food in your belly. I would hope that as a society we are better than that.



Jim,

There ore some on here who actually will entertain a good argument. As far as I can remember Leto is one of them. As Leto stated, most of us have points of view that are pretty set. Over the years I have been swayed a few times by an argument that was better than my own. There are a few on here that believe they are infallible (some would argue that I fall in that category but I disagree). Most of us know who they are. I try to base my arguments and my personal beliefs on logic, statistical evidence and leave my personal experience at the curb. So before you go and condemn Leto, lets hear what he has to say. There is usually more than one side to any issue.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

Leto, I'm going to dis-agree with you that MW is stupid. It may not be perfect but it does help fill a void. I am not posting for the sake of argument but for the protection of people who, w/o MW, would be paid less for the work they do. As most of us know, MW is paltry to live on but without some standard in place to protect workers, they woud be screwed even further. Like Garfied said before, and an excellent post BTW, it is not a perfect system but without it, alot of people would be back to $4-5 an hour or maybe even less. My belief is, MW at least helps people work for an amount that will allow you to squeak by if living a very regimented lifestyle. From that point, it is up to that individual to progress, on their work ethic, abilities, education and attitude. Should we help people with less fortunes? Perhaps, on a case by case situation, as far too many want a 'Free-Ride' and that Dog won't Hunt in my book. There will always be 'Slackers' who are content to make squat, but others who want to get ahead and they will do so if they work towards that goal in a productive way. Not to say some luck may be needed.

 

[Leto2]

Unfortunately I do not believe that is the case. Yes there are Tiger Woods, Colin Powels, Alberto Gonzales of the world. There are always exceptions to the rule. As far as I am aware those who grow up on the wrong side of the tracks (white, black, Hispanic or other) do not have the same opportunities as those fortunate enough to go to Beverly high, Yale, MIT, USC or where ever. Working harder does not always work. This is not to say that the current system is flawless. I agree that there are far too many people who take advantage of the system so that they do not have to work.

In so far as the min wage is concerned, it is my belief that with out the safety net, there will be far to many people who through no fault of their own, will be working for wages inadequate to maintain a decent standard of living. I am not sure what the fix is. Eliminating it in my opinion is not the answer. The only folks who would benefit from that are businesses. Also, one other aspect to look at. Someone has to pick up our garbage, clean the offices… etc. If the wages to do those jobs are not enough to make a living on them, who does them? There are people out there who just do not have what it takes to be a rocket scientist or a CEO. Their station in life is lower on the ladder. I am not sure I am comfortable with telling them that sorry, I know you are trying your best but it just is not good enough so you will just have to live under this over pass because you cannot earn enough to have a roof over your head and food in your belly. I would hope that as a society we are better than that.

I think that you are over-generalizing the problem (but perhaps I am too). You say that "working harder does not always work", and I agree that "working harder" might not get someone out of poverty, but I think that someone who works harder is going to get above minimum wage. Employers value hard workers, enough that if they see someone consistently work hard, they will give them a raise.

Consumers (which is just about everyone in the US) would benefit from lower prices if there were no MW; it's not only business that benefit. That would mean that a lot of the low wage workers would also have lower cost of living.

You're comment that "Someone has to pick up our garbage, clean the offices… etc" makes me think you don't understand economics. LET MARKET FORCES DETERMINE THE WAGE. If people aren't willing to do these jobs at a certain wage, then the wage will be increased to entice more people to do them. Why do you think dangerous construction jobs pay so well? Because they have to pay well to give incentive for people to work there.

I would like to say that I think poverty is a problem, here and all over the world. I lived in Panama for a while and saw first hand some serious poverty. I think that we need to solve it; however, I think that there are better means than minimum wage. Minimum wage creates inefficiencies all over the place since it messes up the labor market and prices of goods, and it makes us less competitive with other countries (eg Mexico and China). If we want to battle poverty, I think that we should find more efficient means to do so.
Besides, I don't think that minimum wage does much to solve the poverty problem anyway. Someone working at MW will only earn about $10K during a whole year. That's not enough to do much with. The answer isn't to double it or something, rather we should leave it be and seek more efficient means to help the poor.

 

[Garfield1966]

Again, I agree with you …to a point.

The question of minimum wage is not a stand alone issue. There are, in my opinion other issues that relate to it.

As far as employers go. I am not sure where you work. I work for a large corporation, American Aitlines. They could care less (for the most part) how hard I work. I get paid the same if I do the minimum required or if I bust my arse. I would think your example is more apt to be true in a smaller work environment verses a larger one. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

I look at Wal-mart as an example of what you are saying. They offer very low prices. They also have very low wages. They hire a large portion of part time help so that they do not have to pay benefits. Personally, I do not shop at wal mart. I disagree with there labor practices and I will not support them if I can help it. I cannot help but wonder how much of their savings gets passed on to the consumer. I am also not convinced that it is good for society as a whole. While their prices may be lower, the cost of utilities, housing, groceries ..etc have not gone down. So these folks who are making salaries ‘that were determined by market forces’ are making less but their expenses remain the same. Unless all expenses drop along with salaries, the people at the bottom of the wage ladder still get screwed.

Another issue that I think has been over looked is immigrant labor. Immigrant labor will accept labor at below average rates due to the fact that it may be all they can get. As you said, someone earning minimum wage will not make a whole lot to begin with. If there is not min wage, they will be making even less. How would they survive on that job? Someone has to do it? If they decided they cannot live on that job and find something else (assuming there is an option) who does their job at below poverty wages? A good bet would be immigrant labor. The company makes a profit and the US worker gets screwed.

I am not worried about the wages for dangerous or highly skilled jobs. The ones I am worried about it the non to low skilled labor force. I am not sure I am comfortable paying less for a apple knowing that someone was only paid $2 an hour to pick them. Market forces have away of making those who have a rare skill very wealthy (perhaps that is ok) but those who are un-skilled get nothing. I am not comfortable with that.

You do bring up and interesting example though perhaps inadvertently. You mentioned Mexico and China. China will be a hard fix due to their distance and their size, but Mexico might be a more viable option. I hope we can all agree that those crossing the border are doing so because they are seeking a better life for them and their family. If they had options in their home land that allowed them to make a fair living my guess is they would stay. Who want to leave their home and live the way they do here in the US unless you have to. My point is, if we would find away to invest in Mexico to bring their economy up instead of letting our economy slide down, I think we would end up help both countries. What we are doing now sure as heck is not working.

You say you think there are better ways to solve it. Like what? I do not mean that as a snide remake but really, what’s your idea? Barring numerous other changes, market forces will not work IMO. Perhaps this is just a mental exercise as I do not think we will solve the issue but I am curious about a different approach.

 

[delldude]

Minimum wage is supposed to be a supplemental source of income,not a living.If someone can not obtain higher wages then they must have educational issues.So what is society supposed to do,keep on elevating the minimum wage until little Freddy who spent his days of EDU playing on Playstation and getting stoned ,can afford to buy a house on min wage?? c'mon.........

 

[QA4Jet-A]

Minimum wage is supposed to be a supplemental source of income,not a living.If someone can not obtain higher wages then they must have educational issues.So what is society supposed to do,keep on elevating the minimum wage until little Freddy who spent his days of EDU playing on Playstation and getting stoned ,can afford to buy a house on min wage?? c'mon.........

Supplement to what? Retirement and Social Security pay? First Timers out of school on their first job? Most kids start out at MW b/c that's all there is, especially in low income areas and even some higher. We are not all Einsteins or Gates and have the ability to make anything but MW starting out.. There are some folks less fortunate that are not brighter than a 40 watt bulb but it's not entirely their fault. At least MW gives them a 'Safety Net' to at least make something for survival until they can improve their abilities, if they can. Some will never get past 'Paper Route' mentality and that is sad but probably true. Little Freddy should have both his parents '####-Slapped' for letting it happen, IMHO!
That is the parents fault and not the childs. Even though MW is lower than it should be, can you imagine what it would be like without it?

 

[delldude]

Supplement to what? Retirement and Social Security pay? First Timers out of school on their first job? Most kids start out at MW b/c that's all there is, especially in low income areas and even some higher. We are not all Einsteins or Gates and have the ability to make anything but MW starting out.. There are some folks less fortunate that are not brighter than a 40 watt bulb but it's not entirely their fault. At least MW gives them a 'Safety Net' to at least make something for survival until they can improve their abilities, if they can. Some will never get past 'Paper Route' mentality and that is sad but probably true. Little Freddy should have both his parents '####-Slapped' for letting it happen, IMHO!
That is the parents fault and not the childs. Even though MW is lower than it should be, can you imagine what it would be like without it?

So what do you want a $20 MW? with bennies too?
MW is just that....not a career as you suggest...something "in addition to" a regular job.You seem to believe people have to make a career at Mickey D's flipping burgers...if you want a MD career,they have an excellent management program...all it takes is time...at minimum wage.
If they can't scholastically do any better....well then I just guess we better bail them out by paying a $10 MW then...
Welfare ll- the new begining.

Funny,why do immigrants take those menial jobs from your hard working lesser educated stoners?

My first MW was making $ 0.65 per hour sonny boy.
Gas was $0.25 per gallon.
Life was good.....

 

[UAL_TECH]

(The liberals on this forum have been very condescending lately. I'm sorry I'm a Neanderthal :blink: , but I think my arguments about minimum wage are more based on principles of government and economics than my "Christian philosophy".)

The theatrical ;-) discussion of minimum wage.
New concept? :down:

I remember reading something from Plato and Socrates on this discussion. Think I’ll take a few days to read some of my ‘paper books’ and come back with my study.
UT

 

[QA4Jet-A]

So what do you want a $20 MW? with bennies too?
MW is just that....not a career as you suggest...something "in addition to" a regular job.You seem to believe people have to make a career at Mickey D's flipping burgers...if you want a MD career,they have an excellent management program...all it takes is time...at minimum wage.
If they can't scholastically do any better....well then I just guess we better bail them out by paying a $10 MW then...
Welfare ll- the new begining.

Funny,why do immigrants take those menial jobs from your hard working lesser educated stoners?

My first MW was making $ 0.65 per hour sonny boy.
Gas was $0.25 per gallon.
Life was good.....

I think you miss my point and this entire thread. Leto just stated he thought MW was stupid and I argue that. There has to be something for those less fortunate to survive. Where you get the Mickey D's idea is beyond me but have at it. I never said that nor intended that. I am also not suggesting we raise MW to $10 an hour as you say nor am I saying we bail anyone out. My only point is MW is needed at some level to keep Companies from screwing people further into poverty. At least MW gives them something to start at, whether adequate enough or not, I feel it would be worse without. And this Sonnyboy remembers gas at 15 cents a gallon during the gas wars, as they used to call them....Old Timer

 

[KCFlyer]

So what do you want a $20 MW? with bennies too?
MW is just that....not a career as you suggest...something "in addition to" a regular job.You seem to believe people have to make a career at Mickey D's flipping burgers...if you want a MD career,they have an excellent management program...all it takes is time...at minimum wage.
If they can't scholastically do any better....well then I just guess we better bail them out by paying a $10 MW then...
Welfare ll- the new begining.

Funny,why do immigrants take those menial jobs from your hard working lesser educated stoners?

My first MW was making $ 0.65 per hour sonny boy.
Gas was $0.25 per gallon.
Life was good.....

Delldude...are you a union man? Because unions gave some folks with GED's the opportunity to support a family, and make a helluva lot more than minimum wage. I mean...when your airline approached employees and told them that they couldn't afford to pay a guy that much money to load bags on a plane, or to clean the interior of the plane, did you sit back and say "that's right...we're way overpaid and we should only accept 'market rates' for the job we do"? Because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to load bags or clean interiors. I wonder, if there wasn't a minimum wage, how quickly would your airline have decided that some idiot would feel great to be able to sling 50 pound bags all day long for $2.50 an hour because they could get "free" travel? You point to Mcdonalds...what's the 'market rate' for other jobs? What's the 'market rate' for YOUR job? Are you worth what they are paying you?

 

[delldude]

I think you miss my point and this entire thread.

I take it your point is a minimum needs to be set to keep employers from exploiting at a lower wage.
Too many feel minimum wage jobs should be paid high enough to feed a family on....thats not what those types jobs are for like it or not.Some do work them fulltime and if a wife works,combined income may work....but a career hamburger flipper maybe should have paid attention in class?

Delldude...are you a union man? Because unions gave some folks with GED's the opportunity to support a family, and make a helluva lot more than minimum wage. I mean...when your airline approached employees and told them that they couldn't afford to pay a guy that much money to load bags on a plane, or to clean the interior of the plane, did you sit back and say "that's right...we're way overpaid and we should only accept 'market rates' for the job we do"?

Actually,not a union man anymore and (and doing quite well) yes I did see my colleagues being paid way more than they were worth and sitting around on their duff's too much.
$18+ for slinging bags is way out of line.

Also I was a union steward for eight years....



Now what do you say to that?

I know a place where they'll sling bags for bananna's