More BK news.

crossfeed

Member
Aug 21, 2002
75
1
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...d=1033849024639, (you can read this article on yahoo news, so you dont have to type it). If we are to go bankrupt, I hope people work together to make the airline great again. From people I work with it seems if we have to take a pay cut there is a good chance AMFA would be our new union of choice. Would it not be beneficial to the IAM to not accept concessions (hourly pay cuts), and let the company go bankrupt, then state to its members that they did not agree to any pay concessions, and its all Uniteds fault for there pay cuts, via bankruptcy judge?
 

ChairPrefRes

Member
Aug 19, 2002
89
0
The problem with letting the BK judge decide on your contracts is only a small aspect of the overall proceding...The biggest problem with BK is that at some point (just like USAirways ) the Judge is going to have to consider bids from investors to purchase or poach UAL...So no matter what you decide if the BK route is taken and UAL doesnt have a friendly dancing partner to help it through... the frustration of Carl Icahn or others bidding for assets could destroy UAL as you know it...It could still happen to Us at USAirways...You'll be on pins and needles the whole time...So if there's any way to stay out of BK give it your best shot...that way you can live to fight another day...Besides we look forward to a happy Codeshare partnership with a good airline that I know you guys are...
 

magsau

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
787
0
IMO, one of the things you will find that if the company does BK pay cuts from the judge would be one of the smaller issues the IAM would have to deal with. In the event of a BK, UAL would have have to emerge a much smaller carrier with a lower operating structure and an even smaller workforce. The IAM would lose lots of employees. I try not to be a doom and gloom type of person, but I can not even begin to understand the thought process that would propel anyone to think their chances are better in BK. The IAM is in a precarious position that much is true. However, failing to negotiate UAL back to prosperity is a strike close to suicide for its members and the airline.

I stress these are only my opinions. However, look at DL, NW and AA the cash strong carriers are starting to feel UAL's pain. The entire industry is under siege and we can either use this as an opportunity to gain an advantage or we can fold up and walk away. I for one would rather do what it takes to bring this airline back to the top than to let the past dictate the future. A quote I saw from Glenn Tilton last week charged me up. He said There will be changes at UAL and if you are not willing to change then you need to look for another place to work. This includes the represented and nonrepresented workforce. I am sick and tired of the bickering among the employee groups. If you can not get along with your co-workers outside your division then you should be the first one looking at the want ads or starting your own business.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


there are worse things than being at work.
 

UAL777flyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
730
0
I echo Magsau's comments. I'll admit, I haven't been too optimistic about avoiding bankruptcy, but I'm beginning to strongly feel that the unions and Tilton will reach acceptable agreements soon. There are strong indications that significant progress is being made with the unions, lending institutions and lessors.
 

AA191

Advanced
Sep 17, 2002
218
0
Contract this, Contract that.

Guys, please work together.

Instead of thinking about yourself only. Why not ask what you can do individually to help your company? Try reading some of these posts, its all about your own money. Hey now, shouldn't you be concerned about UA's money so that you have a job in a few months? Please do what you can to keep UA flying!!!

I love UA and always will. Don't you too?
 

diogenes

Veteran
Aug 22, 2002
2,515
0
Having been there at U, I cannot stress often enough; in BK, the judge WILL NOT pick and choose items in your contracts to uphold, modify, or dispose of. He will make one of two choices - uphold your contract as is, in it's entirety (and if you think that's likely, you've been in the peyote) or abrogate it. That means tear it up and s**tcan it. In that case, you become employees at will. Management will keep those of you they wish to, (no seniority rules) pay you what they want to, and treat you like they want to. Yeah, your union still represents you, and upon emergence from BK, will be negotiating an initial contract, with no status quo protection.

Don't believe me -ask any BK attorney. You don't want to go there.

In closing I am rooting for you guys to make it outside of BK, and hopefully you won't need ATSB guarantees. And you might want to stifle the intralmural ALPA/IAM/AFA bickering - it plays right into management's hands. Keep the gripes in the house. We'd didn't at U, and management took full advantage.
 

novaqt

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
488
0
While everyone here is focused on saving our beloved company, our industry will not come back until we solve a bigger problem affecting our entire industry. People will not travel freely until we have solved the terrorism problem. The terrorists have spent many years living, going to school and studying our capatalistic infrastructure. They have studied our constitution and know how to use our precious freedoms against us. In case you haven't noticed, every time our economy begins to recover, another terrorist incident occurs and sends our stockmarket down.

The Bali incident was targeted at the travel and leisure market. The terrorists will target vacation spots here and around the world. Continuation of terrorism around the globe will ultimately undermine and destroy capitalism. This is what the terrorists intend to destroy. The economy of the USA.

We can solve all our problems by eliminating terrorism. The questions is how do we accomplish it???
 

Ukridge

Senior
Aug 27, 2002
354
0
www.usaviation.com
Novaqt: Continuation of terrorism around the globe will ultimately undermine and destroy capitalism. This is what the terrorists intend to destroy. The economy of the USA.

This is exactly what they are trying to do. The sooner the leadership in the U.S. quits wetting their nappies in fear of offending groups in their quest to purchase votes the sooner the populace will be educated to the true aim of the terrorists. Yes, I am cognizant of the problmes we in Europe have stumbled upon in finding the correct balance in our support of your efforts but the more thinking of commentators here are aware of the danger you face. This danger is that the U.S. leadership views this as a criminal problem. The terrorists are criminals and need to be sought out and punished as such. This is not the correct view. With the paralyzing fear of naming the threat for what it really is (idealism - the idea that the U.S. and the West are to be destroyed by any means)the fight is fought at a disadvantage. It is not a fight against crime but rather against idealogues and this is far more subtle and threatening. Your industry unfortunately will be susceptible in some fashion to this threat for a long time. Until our collective Western governments fight the idea that fosters this 'crime' we are susceptible at best. I wish us all luck no matter how our respective governments squable over the tactics. I fly often yet feel only marginally safer than before last year and that only because crews and passangers will not countenance another aircraft takeover.
 

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
If we are to go bankrupt, I hope people work together to make the airline great again. From people I work with it seems if we have to take a pay cut there is a good chance AMFA would be our new union of choice. Would it not be beneficial to the IAM to not accept concessions (hourly pay cuts), and let the company go bankrupt, then state to its members that they did not agree to any pay concessions, and its all Uniteds fault for there pay cuts, via bankruptcy judge?
----------------

The problem I see here is the rage that will be hurled against the mechanics if they drive Ual into BK because they want to show their anger at the company, and get AMFA in.

You are saying to negate our board seats, be the cause of losing ESOP share potential, and ruin many employees who might have retirement income in their 401K account in UAL stock.
This dosen't sound like such a smart thing.

Especially when mechanics will take the same or worse cuts after BK, and lose a large portion of their jobs to outsourcing.
Maybe lose a maintenence base also.
They might be the lucky ones. I think the rest will be treated like lepers.
Hopefully mechanics will reason with their minds instead of with emotion.

Good luck,
 

sastal

Member
Sep 2, 2002
84
0
[P]Management will keep those of you they wish to, (no seniority rules) pay you what they want to, and treat you like they want to....[/P]
[P]Tell it how it is! It would be about time that UAL sent some of those old grannies home to retire. I took more than a year off after 9/11 to help, in my own little way, those coworkers who were junior to me, who needed the income to support their families, and who risked being laid off. Did the senior mama's? Hell no! After 9/11, I can still remember the Denver gramdmas saying: Why is everyone so sad? Well, at least we're not the ones who are going to lose our jobs because of this. Why take a year or two off when the company pays you to sit on your butt as you enjoy your two-month paid vacation (you should see these bidding wizards at work to milk the company for every penny)? And why retire when you can fly two or three Milan or Tokyo trips a month and be paid $50k a year, shop for leather goods at your destination, and strut down first-class aisle? I really hope our concessions are so great in scope that these SYD-LAX, IAD-MXP, ORD-HKG, and MIA-EZE regulars finally will decide to leave. Or, perhaps, they will vote against concessions, the same way they voted to ratify our ten-year contract.[/P]
[P]Let's save this company, people. I know of no other corporation that will give you time off pretty much at your will, insure you while you are away, and still offer you the chance to be mobile and go visit your friends around the world for free. [/P]
 

Tim Thorpe

Member
Aug 20, 2002
53
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/17/2002 7:34:54 PM atabuy wrote:

If we are to go bankrupt, I hope people work together to make the airline great again. From people I work with it seems if we have to take a pay cut there is a good chance AMFA would be our new union of choice. Would it not be beneficial to the IAM to not accept concessions (hourly pay cuts), and let the company go bankrupt, then state to its members that they did not agree to any pay concessions, and its all Uniteds fault for there pay cuts, via bankruptcy judge?
----------------

The problem I see here is the rage that will be hurled against the mechanics if they drive Ual into BK because they want to show their anger at the company, and get AMFA in.

You are saying to negate our board seats, be the cause of losing ESOP share potential, and ruin many employees who might have retirement income in their 401K account in UAL stock.
This dosen't sound like such a smart thing.

Especially when mechanics will take the same or worse cuts after BK, and lose a large portion of their jobs to outsourcing.
Maybe lose a maintenence base also.
They might be the lucky ones. I think the rest will be treated like lepers.
Hopefully mechanics will reason with their minds instead of with emotion.

Good luck,



----------------
[/blockquote]
I think you all give the AMFA way to much credit. I have voted for them in the past and signed so many cards I can't count them. However they are not currently much of a threat to the IAM in my opinion. They are disorganized and don't have competent leadership. They won't step into this thing until well after it is over because they don't want to be involved in this mess. They haven't put out any flyers at IND in so long I can't recall the topic of the last one. Probably because they just don't know what to say. Shoot who does. I talk to alot of mechanics and believe me the AMFA is not on our minds right now.
 

flaptrack

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
141
0
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/17/2002 11:29:53 AM novaqt wrote:

While everyone here is focused on saving our beloved company, our industry will not come back until we solve a bigger problem affecting our entire industry. People will not travel freely until we have solved the terrorism problem. The terrorists have spent many years living, going to school and studying our capatalistic infrastructure. They have studied our constitution and know how to use our precious freedoms against us. In case you haven't noticed, every time our economy begins to recover, another terrorist incident occurs and sends our stockmarket down.

The Bali incident was targeted at the travel and leisure market. The terrorists will target vacation spots here and around the world. Continuation of terrorism around the globe will ultimately undermine and destroy capitalism. This is what the terrorists intend to destroy. The economy of the USA.

We can solve all our problems by eliminating terrorism. The questions is how do we accomplish it???
----------------
[/blockquote]
I agree

Master arm on
Doors open
Bombs away
 

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