More Fun & Games.

BugWash

Member
Jun 18, 2008
28
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I'll start.

With the parking of airplanes, in addition to various issues Jake Brace is trying to write off, I'm guessing between 1.2 and 1.5 billion.

Anyone?
 
I predict a net loss of $800 million not including special items like writedowns. Including all special items, look for a net loss of $1.5 billion.

Additionally, I predict that the second Ch 11 filing will occur by December 1, 2008.
 
I predict a net loss of $800 million not including special items like writedowns. Including all special items, look for a net loss of $1.5 billion.

Additionally, I predict that the second Ch 11 filing will occur by December 1, 2008.

I agree on the 1.5 billion. Perhaps on the Ch 11, with the additional thought that American will be joining in that trip come December. This is, of course, if oil does not drop back down. AA can't compete with their pensions still intact. Plus with Bush out of office they won't be the golden child of Texas anymore, losing a lot of protection come election day.

US Air by year end....................????
 
AA can't compete with their pensions still intact.

Why do all of you keep harping on the AA pensions as a financial problem to the company? The pension plans are currently 95% funded. I.E, the money is already in the hands of the pension plan trustees.

AMR gains practically nothing from dumping them on the PBGC other than avoiding future payments to them and some incidental admin expenses. And, that's going to be taken care of in the contract negotiations currently underway. In return for maintaining the plans, the plans are probably going to be closed to future participants. Future hires will not be part of the defined benefit plans. I'm guessing they will be given some 401-K alternative.

As far as the 5% underfunding...I would almost be willing to bet that as a government agency, the PBGC could petition the bankruptcy court that they had a prior claim before other debtors on any money the company had lying around. And, I'm guessing that petition would be successful.

The pension plans that have been dumped on the PBGC in BK were all seriously underfunded. The dumpers had a real interest in unloading those "past due" obligations. Please explain why you think AMR would get any benefit from like actions.

This is not to say that I think AMR will not file bk at some point in the future. But, dumping the pensions plans will not be an issue. The company will be crying "Please Mr. Bankruptcy Court. Save us from these greedy unions who are trying to kill us. Oh, and while you are at it, please sign these executive golden parachute agreements. Thanks ever so."
 
I predict a net loss of $800 million not including special items like writedowns. Including all special items, look for a net loss of $1.5 billion.

Additionally, I predict that the second Ch 11 filing will occur by December 1, 2008.
I'm inclined to agree with you that UA will have a terrible quarter. But the one piece of hard data that exists seems to contradict that idea. DL says that it will be profitable this quarter -- unclear on what basis though. If DL is making money, then I'm guessing that things are not as bad as they may seem. Which leads me to predict a loss in the $400-500m range excluding items. The writedowns are really immaterial when considering the ability to be an ongoing concern.

Predicting Ch. 11 is much more difficult. It depends on how concentrated UA's losses are. If they are losing large amounts of money on 30-40% of their routes, then parking 100 planes will make a huge difference to their profitability. But if they're losing modest amounts across the majority of their network, then it won't change that much. Of course, none of us know whether the fall reductions in capacity in the industry will be enough to support higher average fares.

I will predict that UA will not go Ch. 11. If they go, it will be Ch. 7. But before it comes to that, I think that US will go. US is not reducing capacity as much as others and has dramatically less international flying to hedge declining domestic demand. With few unencumbered assets, US is the first likely candidate.
 
I'm inclined to agree with you that UA will have a terrible quarter. But the one piece of hard data that exists seems to contradict that idea. DL says that it will be profitable this quarter -- unclear on what basis though. If DL is making money, then I'm guessing that things are not as bad as they may seem. Which leads me to predict a loss in the $400-500m range excluding items. The writedowns are really immaterial when considering the ability to be an ongoing concern.

Predicting Ch. 11 is much more difficult. It depends on how concentrated UA's losses are. If they are losing large amounts of money on 30-40% of their routes, then parking 100 planes will make a huge difference to their profitability. But if they're losing modest amounts across the majority of their network, then it won't change that much. Of course, none of us know whether the fall reductions in capacity in the industry will be enough to support higher average fares.

I will predict that UA will not go Ch. 11. If they go, it will be Ch. 7. But before it comes to that, I think that US will go. US is not reducing capacity as much as others and has dramatically less international flying to hedge declining domestic demand. With few unencumbered assets, US is the first likely candidate.

I couldn't agree more with you.. ALL the us carriers needs is one airline to go belly up and United and American will be ok.
It's sad too say this . United is cutting and cutting so i think they will be ok.. AA also.

If Delta makes money this 2nd quarter... United will be ok also..
 
If UA doesn't have some management change then they are headed for BK7. Now that they have open skies with London the only asset of value is the Pacific Rim. While getting rid of the 737-5 and 737-3 makes sense, the grounding of 6 747's doesn't add up to the 'wonderful world of growth in the international market place.' Therefore, I see UA bleeding slowly for a few years as they downsize to number 6 or 7 in terms of ranking, much like TWA did in the past.

As for a major going out before United, well that could change United's fortunes, only if managment were to change. When you have constant battles within you can't take care of the problems from without. I would guess that even though fuel is up, winter related losses should be excluded. The writedown of the assets they are going to ground, the early termination fees for breaking leases, I don't know if they have enough time to include them into the actual assessment of the quarter without delaying financials so they can cook (work) the books.

Now I would venture to guess that they may accrue the tentative charges for all those changes into the quarter, but they don't have to be accurate. Special items, 6-747's and the whole 737 fleet with parts will write down something close to the write down of the 727s and DC10's after 9/11 which IIRC was in the range of $1billion.

The Sept 11 write down was as follows,
Aircraft grounding and impairment $788
Reduction in force $217
Early termination fees $181
Discontinued capital projects $107
Miscellaneous $20
total $1,313,000,000.00

So, you figure a reduction, only lasting a longer peroid of time, (thru the end of 2009 odd timing....but that's another story....)you will have some increased costs and some lower costs. Plus the 737's are much older but still have value outside of the United States whereas the 727's were at the end of the rope, (India, China, Africa, South America) so $1billion is a fair writedown of assets.

Now on a quarter operating loss....you have fuel up over $1 a gallon and United already stated fuel will add $9 billion in costs but the luggage thing will only bring in an additional $275million, you are still looking for an offset of 8.725 billion over four quarters. But airfares are up which will offset some of the increase, but traffic is down. So, why don't we not split hairs and call it an operating loss of $2billion for the quarter and $1billion in special writedowns, thus a net loss of $1billion for the quatrer.

What else would explain the fall from $41.14 on 2/1/08 a share to $3.86 on 7/3/08?
 
Why do all of you keep harping on the AA pensions as a financial problem to the company? The pension plans are currently 95% funded. I.E, the money is already in the hands of the pension plan trustees.

AMR gains practically nothing from dumping them on the PBGC other than avoiding future payments to them and some incidental admin expenses.
That's what the United employees thought also.

As far as gaining from the dumping of the pensions.........
When the plans suffer losses, the company has to fund those plans to bring them back up. If they go to get a loan for new aircraft or anything else, the bank is going to want some assurances that the money is going to be use for it's intended purpose and not on some frivolous item such as a pension (as the bank sees it).

I'd be willing to bet you that the first thing that goes is the pension fund in any BK.
 
If UA doesn't have some management change then they are headed for BK7.

What else would explain the fall from $41.14 on 2/1/08 a share to $3.86 on 7/3/08?

Hey Scuba,

I would like to see United management change as well. I think all the employees would.

I don't think they are heading for Ch 7, perhaps another Ch 11......such as the second Ch11 Us Air has already had. I think several airlines are headed to Ch 11....before United, namely US Air and Air Tran. Once there if anyone will CH 7 it would be US Air.

All airline stocks are sinking like the Titanic now. Monday should be another fun day.