First; I understand the frustration, the worry and concern and even some of the thinking I read on these boards. We all have been through this twice before. This time around I look at it differently. Given the fact we have a known union buster on board hired to do exactly that, break the unity spirit, the situation this company finds itself in plays right into a union buster's hand. It's perfect for him, like a dream come true. Are we as a company hurting? Sure we are. Was LUV coming before Dave pushed the panic button and Dave knew that fact, you betcha, either that, or he was woefully short sighted. I am betting we have more time than Dave and Jerry are letting on using this very deadly hand of poker to have their way with labor. That was their goal coming in back when they started. Nothing has changed in that regard. Not to down play our dire straights situation and pretending it's all a union busting ploy: I see our the situation from this angle too; We are a cancer patient, we just recently had two major operations and suffered greatly from unbearable pain and uncertainly, and now death is at the door a third time and again the doctors are here holding their knife promising it will go away this time, but make NO promises of the outcome, so I have a choice. I can let it go and live what time I have free of any more pain, the uncertainly always there regardless, or I can let them cut me up a third time and suffer like you can’t believe and very likely die a slow painful death anyway. I choose to let the chips fall where they may. Everyone in this third round will have to do their own personal soul searching finding a decision they themselves can live comfortably with. I have found mine. I will not tell the next guy he is stupid because he doesn't think like me, it's purely his choice. We are all in this mess together brought to you by fate and helped along greatly by a young CEO who believed a union busting big shot would make him a corporate hero and corporate America would embrace him. Pointing to Eastern Airline's failure is like pointing to the grave yard to a cancer patient, he knows it’s there whether you point to it or not. We are all suffering with worry and uncertainty and I feel there is no need to add to it by telling the next guy how stupid he is. I can only tell the next guy how I personally am dealing with it, which I just did with this post.
My Take On Our Sorry Situation
- Thread starter cavalier
- Start date
Bob,
Jerry Glass is as you know , Not a member of the BOD and that was just a slip in terminology on Cav's behalf. However , This scurge is a "hired gun" on the property with the expressed blessings of our CEO and BOD....so it's just knit-picking to question the facts.
I do believe Cav has done his soul searching...and he has come to terms with the where he stands...he also habors no ill or mailce toward others whom may have another take or circumstance that will impact their reaction to this circumstance.
I agree that this is certainly a time to be doing the soul searching and making end-roads toward other options....then again I have been preaching this mindset for a long time. The issue is to have your house and finances in order....and be prepared for the failings of this company..or even the fall-out of your stand in this fight. However you choose to word it or qualify it? Be Prepared !!!
I agree with your statement about it being easier to find a job when you already have one...My parents have drummed that into my head ever since I got my workers permit in North Carolina at the age of 15. I found it easier to find work even before that when I was busy mowing lawns as a early teen as well. My being out there doing , granted me exposure to further offers of work. Needless to say , being a conservative kid , I had money for a slightly used vehicle upon my 16th birthday witout parental assistance beyond insurance at first.
I for one , Do not think of you as a "management shill"...but I do bristle at times when an industry outsider tries to tell me , what's best for me"
I believe that thier has to be areas that can be explored on both the part of labor and management...Yet management has taken "Good Faith" actions on our part to extreme , perverse and anti-labor levels whenever we have attempted to work with them. This is entirely counter-productive to achieving what both parties are supposed to be working toward. I liken this to a kid I once knew , that picked on a chained up German Shepard , One day the chain broke and the kid got his back in stones...yet it has to be the dog at fault? I was under the impression that the human (management) was supposed to be the wiser one in this siuation? Seems that this is not the case in all respects.
Jerry Glass is as you know , Not a member of the BOD and that was just a slip in terminology on Cav's behalf. However , This scurge is a "hired gun" on the property with the expressed blessings of our CEO and BOD....so it's just knit-picking to question the facts.
I do believe Cav has done his soul searching...and he has come to terms with the where he stands...he also habors no ill or mailce toward others whom may have another take or circumstance that will impact their reaction to this circumstance.
I agree that this is certainly a time to be doing the soul searching and making end-roads toward other options....then again I have been preaching this mindset for a long time. The issue is to have your house and finances in order....and be prepared for the failings of this company..or even the fall-out of your stand in this fight. However you choose to word it or qualify it? Be Prepared !!!
I agree with your statement about it being easier to find a job when you already have one...My parents have drummed that into my head ever since I got my workers permit in North Carolina at the age of 15. I found it easier to find work even before that when I was busy mowing lawns as a early teen as well. My being out there doing , granted me exposure to further offers of work. Needless to say , being a conservative kid , I had money for a slightly used vehicle upon my 16th birthday witout parental assistance beyond insurance at first.
I for one , Do not think of you as a "management shill"...but I do bristle at times when an industry outsider tries to tell me , what's best for me"
I believe that thier has to be areas that can be explored on both the part of labor and management...Yet management has taken "Good Faith" actions on our part to extreme , perverse and anti-labor levels whenever we have attempted to work with them. This is entirely counter-productive to achieving what both parties are supposed to be working toward. I liken this to a kid I once knew , that picked on a chained up German Shepard , One day the chain broke and the kid got his back in stones...yet it has to be the dog at fault? I was under the impression that the human (management) was supposed to be the wiser one in this siuation? Seems that this is not the case in all respects.
Bob...No hairs are split my friend ,PineyBob said:
Rono Dutto , or however you spell it? , is an advisor to Dave Bronner and the RSA , since his departure from UA.
This fact made for an early connect the dot exercise for Ernie's Brother and Tramps pal , to try to sell the board on the UCT/ICT scenario. ..and of course that thread will never die as long as he's here.
- Thread Starter
- #4
Bob...On board was meant to imply....On board our ship, our company, like we are all on board as employees. No, he is NOT on the BOD but just like AOG stated, he sure has the BOD's nod.PineyBob said:
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
Actually, Mr. Dutta is on the BOD, I believe. He was one of the 8 seats Bronner filled for the RSA.
longing4piedmont
Veteran
Cav
I lurk here almost everyday, but seldom post because I do feel like I’m on the outside looking in. This is a place for US employees. I haven’t been, up until today, able to understand how so many people could say “the concession stand is closed†or “shut the place downâ€. I seldom have agreeded with your post or your point of view, but three things happened today that has caused me to reflect upon my opinion of the majority of those “hard line union†employees posting on this board.
I renewed my club membership today with a lady who is one of my favorites in my “home†club. I made the off hand statement that renewing was my act of faith that US was going to make it through the year. I offered the comment as a word of encouragement. I wish those words had never left my mouth. The effect was immediate and like a dagger in her heart. The pain on her face was very evident and real. She cares. She wants US to survive. She did not need me to remind her that the company was in trouble. Regardless of how she feels about how all of this is going to work out, her career is on the line, and she is very concerned.
On my flight tonight I had a long conversation with a PIT based F/A who has worked for the company for almost 25 years. This person, who has a family, is now faced with huge uncertainty. This person is working a part time job to help make ends meet. They have given a lot and they may have to give more. Yes the industry has change, but that does not diminish the impact on this family. This individual cared. You could see it in their work. The service was a good as it gets on a 1:30 flight. You could see the hurt in their eyes, and the fear. The fear of the unknown. Fear of losing something that they had worked 25 years to gain. Fear of losing something they loved. Just because I believe that things will never be the same for the US employees, doesn’t mean that facing that reality is not hard. There is no way that I could have looked this person in the eye and said “you need to take another pay cut or this airline is not going to survive.†Up until today I believed this. I have posted this very thing on this board.
Then I read your post. You were the third person today to hit me with the reality of being a US employee. After today, I now realize that I can not know how you feel. I can not possibly know what the employees of US are going through regardless of what I think US and the employees need to do to pull this out. All of the business experience I have gained and all of my expert “advice†I could offer came face to face with the fact that the employees of US having given a lot and will be asked to give more. The pain in those faces was more than I wish to think about.
I wish you well. I wish I could change the world in which you now work. I will continue to fly US as long as there is a US. You and your fellow employees have treated me with respect and with a genuine concern as a VFF. You are the best. I simply will no longer offer up my advice. I have decided that unless I have walked in your shoes, any advice I can offer at this point would be hollow.
I lurk here almost everyday, but seldom post because I do feel like I’m on the outside looking in. This is a place for US employees. I haven’t been, up until today, able to understand how so many people could say “the concession stand is closed†or “shut the place downâ€. I seldom have agreeded with your post or your point of view, but three things happened today that has caused me to reflect upon my opinion of the majority of those “hard line union†employees posting on this board.
I renewed my club membership today with a lady who is one of my favorites in my “home†club. I made the off hand statement that renewing was my act of faith that US was going to make it through the year. I offered the comment as a word of encouragement. I wish those words had never left my mouth. The effect was immediate and like a dagger in her heart. The pain on her face was very evident and real. She cares. She wants US to survive. She did not need me to remind her that the company was in trouble. Regardless of how she feels about how all of this is going to work out, her career is on the line, and she is very concerned.
On my flight tonight I had a long conversation with a PIT based F/A who has worked for the company for almost 25 years. This person, who has a family, is now faced with huge uncertainty. This person is working a part time job to help make ends meet. They have given a lot and they may have to give more. Yes the industry has change, but that does not diminish the impact on this family. This individual cared. You could see it in their work. The service was a good as it gets on a 1:30 flight. You could see the hurt in their eyes, and the fear. The fear of the unknown. Fear of losing something that they had worked 25 years to gain. Fear of losing something they loved. Just because I believe that things will never be the same for the US employees, doesn’t mean that facing that reality is not hard. There is no way that I could have looked this person in the eye and said “you need to take another pay cut or this airline is not going to survive.†Up until today I believed this. I have posted this very thing on this board.
Then I read your post. You were the third person today to hit me with the reality of being a US employee. After today, I now realize that I can not know how you feel. I can not possibly know what the employees of US are going through regardless of what I think US and the employees need to do to pull this out. All of the business experience I have gained and all of my expert “advice†I could offer came face to face with the fact that the employees of US having given a lot and will be asked to give more. The pain in those faces was more than I wish to think about.
I wish you well. I wish I could change the world in which you now work. I will continue to fly US as long as there is a US. You and your fellow employees have treated me with respect and with a genuine concern as a VFF. You are the best. I simply will no longer offer up my advice. I have decided that unless I have walked in your shoes, any advice I can offer at this point would be hollow.
PITbull
Veteran
Sorry Bob,
Collecting unemployment does not diminish your chances of finding gainful employment. Were did you get that at, and how do you come to that assumption and make that conclusion?
I have personal experience with my family. My sister was unemployed from her company that went under (non-union company) for 6 months and had a head hunter find her a VP job at travel company. Her education background is a Political Science Undergrad Degree. Her previous job was General Manger, and before that was General Manger of the TWA "call center".
I have quite a few friends whose departments have closed and collected unemployment and subsequentely secured decent jobs with good benefits. Personally have a airline mechanic friend who opened his own auto repair shop. A gate agent who has a resturant. We also have f/as and schedulers that have bands, and play instruments for a living. WE have those that teach music as well.
We also have many f/as and gate agents that have clothing stores, as well as seamsters and tailors that make clothes for sell. We have EMTs and nurses galore, who work and practice at present along with this job. We even have employees that are in the political life and hold "office".
Personally, I have worked two nursing jobs while working at USAirways. I have many, many collegues that are realtors, or accountants, or hair dressers that do that work while working here at U.I have gate agent friends that are Web masters, and Computer Doctors,(as they call themselves) We have f/as that work at Beaver County Community College teaching. WE have f/as that substitute teach. We have f/a that have law degrees and practice, pilots as well. We have pilots that have medical degress. We have gate agents and f/as who have catering services. F/as that have "window cleaning" business. Even some that are undertakers. We have f/as that breed dogs for a living and those who own kennels and animal grooming houses, We have mechanics and f/as that own LIMO services. Where do folks get off implying that airline people can't find gainful employment in Corporate America...you've got to be joking to imply we can't find gainful employment.
We are a hell of a skilled, educated multi-talented, multi-tasked group of employees here at U. Those who scream of "fear" are those elitists that make $200,000 and up, and want everyone to save their gainful employment, even if they have to "tear down" the average employee on this property to have their incomes saved....that includes management that are fixated on this board.
Collecting unemployment does not diminish your chances of finding gainful employment. Were did you get that at, and how do you come to that assumption and make that conclusion?
I have personal experience with my family. My sister was unemployed from her company that went under (non-union company) for 6 months and had a head hunter find her a VP job at travel company. Her education background is a Political Science Undergrad Degree. Her previous job was General Manger, and before that was General Manger of the TWA "call center".
I have quite a few friends whose departments have closed and collected unemployment and subsequentely secured decent jobs with good benefits. Personally have a airline mechanic friend who opened his own auto repair shop. A gate agent who has a resturant. We also have f/as and schedulers that have bands, and play instruments for a living. WE have those that teach music as well.
We also have many f/as and gate agents that have clothing stores, as well as seamsters and tailors that make clothes for sell. We have EMTs and nurses galore, who work and practice at present along with this job. We even have employees that are in the political life and hold "office".
Personally, I have worked two nursing jobs while working at USAirways. I have many, many collegues that are realtors, or accountants, or hair dressers that do that work while working here at U.I have gate agent friends that are Web masters, and Computer Doctors,(as they call themselves) We have f/as that work at Beaver County Community College teaching. WE have f/as that substitute teach. We have f/a that have law degrees and practice, pilots as well. We have pilots that have medical degress. We have gate agents and f/as who have catering services. F/as that have "window cleaning" business. Even some that are undertakers. We have f/as that breed dogs for a living and those who own kennels and animal grooming houses, We have mechanics and f/as that own LIMO services. Where do folks get off implying that airline people can't find gainful employment in Corporate America...you've got to be joking to imply we can't find gainful employment.
We are a hell of a skilled, educated multi-talented, multi-tasked group of employees here at U. Those who scream of "fear" are those elitists that make $200,000 and up, and want everyone to save their gainful employment, even if they have to "tear down" the average employee on this property to have their incomes saved....that includes management that are fixated on this board.
Pit,
You have to admit that many of those employees that you quote in your post are very lucky to be employed full time with US Airways, but yet have work rules flexible enough too allow them to have second jobs - and do not tell me it is because they have know other choice. As I am well aware of the current average salary of a US Airways employee and in comparison to the national average in the USA it is well above the average. Therefore I would expect that the many that you speak of would be very understanding that in our current situation we may now need employees to work differently and be more productive than they have had to in the past. It is a new era in aviation and we must do things differently if we are going to survive.
You have to admit that many of those employees that you quote in your post are very lucky to be employed full time with US Airways, but yet have work rules flexible enough too allow them to have second jobs - and do not tell me it is because they have know other choice. As I am well aware of the current average salary of a US Airways employee and in comparison to the national average in the USA it is well above the average. Therefore I would expect that the many that you speak of would be very understanding that in our current situation we may now need employees to work differently and be more productive than they have had to in the past. It is a new era in aviation and we must do things differently if we are going to survive.
PITbull
Veteran
Real World,
Welcome back...knew you would surface during this time.
And you are correct in your deduction that we still have flexible work rules for many of our employees. THAT IS WHY WE CAN'T JUST OPEN OUR CONTRACTS AND GIVE THEM UP AND LET YOU HELP YOURSELF. Otherwise, we won't be able to maintain our family income to keep our heads above water......cause god only knows, you're not giving any increases out!
Thank you for acknowledging my very sentiments, and you of all know them very well.
PS: And the reserves you kicked in the teeth, don't have any flexibility left to hold anyother type of employment....do you have the decentsy to admit that?
PSS: And, it use to be better than average...tis not now, and not for the past two years. AND IS DEFINITELY NOT BETTER THAN THE AVERAGE EMPLOYMENT OUT THERE FOR MANY OF OUR EMPLOYEES.
Welcome back...knew you would surface during this time.
And you are correct in your deduction that we still have flexible work rules for many of our employees. THAT IS WHY WE CAN'T JUST OPEN OUR CONTRACTS AND GIVE THEM UP AND LET YOU HELP YOURSELF. Otherwise, we won't be able to maintain our family income to keep our heads above water......cause god only knows, you're not giving any increases out!
Thank you for acknowledging my very sentiments, and you of all know them very well.
PS: And the reserves you kicked in the teeth, don't have any flexibility left to hold anyother type of employment....do you have the decentsy to admit that?
PSS: And, it use to be better than average...tis not now, and not for the past two years. AND IS DEFINITELY NOT BETTER THAN THE AVERAGE EMPLOYMENT OUT THERE FOR MANY OF OUR EMPLOYEES.
pitguy
Veteran
real world,
Airline jobs should traditionally pay better than the average job out there.
--"This is the best job I have ever hated."
Airline jobs should traditionally pay better than the average job out there.
--"This is the best job I have ever hated."
Twicebaked
Veteran
- May 22, 2003
- 1,788
- 18
Oh Please...somebody PLEASE get Piney to do the same.longing4piedmont said:
I have never seen one person spend so much time going back and forth between management and labor when they HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH US.
Your a customer!!!!!!!!!! Get on with it already. Let us die in piece will ya!!!
PITbull
Veteran
Longing,
Thank you for your words and epiphany.
It will always be our pleasure to serve folks like you who appreciate hard work and dedication. Thanks for supporing our airline with your continued patronage.
I salute you.
Thank you for your words and epiphany.
It will always be our pleasure to serve folks like you who appreciate hard work and dedication. Thanks for supporing our airline with your continued patronage.
I salute you.
PITbull
Veteran
Bob,
We will not just settle for more concessions. You really are clueless when it comes to a baggage handler or utility person's job duties. These folks have other crafts. You need to spend some time talking to a baggage handler and utility as I do on a daily basis.....and don't come on these boards next week and say you spoke with a ton of those employees with those crafts and they have nothing...you will lose more credibility sliding down that hill.
I know more about the culture and employees of U than our presteen management types who have been here short of two years.
If folks were that in fear, they would not be demanding of their union leadership to NOT give up anything else. They are so well aware of the risks, along with the repeated threats with yet another twist.
We will not just settle for more concessions. You really are clueless when it comes to a baggage handler or utility person's job duties. These folks have other crafts. You need to spend some time talking to a baggage handler and utility as I do on a daily basis.....and don't come on these boards next week and say you spoke with a ton of those employees with those crafts and they have nothing...you will lose more credibility sliding down that hill.
I know more about the culture and employees of U than our presteen management types who have been here short of two years.
If folks were that in fear, they would not be demanding of their union leadership to NOT give up anything else. They are so well aware of the risks, along with the repeated threats with yet another twist.
EXCUSE ME OH SO MIGHTY PINEY BOB. BUT YOU HAVE REALLY PISSED ME OFF. HOW DARE YOU TELL PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEDICATED AND WORKED HARD FOR 20-30 YEARS THAT THEY ARE "UNSKILLED LABOR WITH OUT COLLEGE EDUCATIONS AND THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO FIND A JOB BECAUSE ALL THEY HAVE IS A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION. They have life experience, they have work ethics, they have dedication, they have KNOWLEDGE.....THAT NO COLLEGE DIPLOMA CAN GIVE YOU. So get off your high horse and NEVER let me see you put down the good people of this airlines. You are really something else. :down:
