New vote on Thursday

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
To the District 141-M membership of United Airlines:
Dear Sisters and Brothers,
Following the rejection of the tentative agreement to participate in United Airlines’ recovery program, District 141-M officials questioned the membership to determine what major issues caused the agreement to fail. An overwhelming majority of the membership we spoke with expressed the ongoing problems with quality of work-life issues and the inability to select which vacation days will be unpaid as the primary reasons for refusing the tentative agreement. District 141-M officials met with United Airlines management yesterday to discuss and resolve these issues.
Along with you, I feel management should have addressed the quality of work-life issues earlier, but finding a permanent CEO and replacing senior management had to be completed first. Obtaining a commitment to improve these labor-management issues from an outgoing management team would have been a meaningless exercise.
The attached letter confirms CEO Glenn Tilton’s pledge to resolve the membership’s quality of work-life issues, as well his commitment to seek employee input and ideas as he leads United’s recovery efforts.
We were also able to clarify the application of the recovery plan provisions on unpaid vacation days. In years 2004 through 2007, IAM members would now be permitted to designate which four vacation days will be unpaid.
In view of the fact that United has addressed the issues expressed by the membership, I have scheduled a vote for Thursday, December 5, 2002 to present the attached letters of agreement and the other previously presented recovery program terms to a membership ratification vote. The District 141-M Executive Board strongly recommends ratification, as it is the final opportunity to avoid bankruptcy and protect against the elimination of our entire collective bargaining agreement.
On Thursday you will be voting on more than your contract; you will be voting on the direction of your company, your job and your future. Weigh all options before you vote, and make an informed, educated decision.
Sincerely and fraternally,
Scotty Ford
President
IAM District 141
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 2, 2002
Mr. Scotty Ford
President and General Chairman
International Association of Machinists
and Aerospace Workers – District 141M
321 Allerton
South San Francisco, CA 94080
Dear Scotty:
Our tentative agreements with each of the IAM groups call for establishing joint committees to review the performance of the respective operating groups. These committees focus on the kind of change I think our company needs to make us successful in our recovery efforts.
Cost savings are necessary if we are to be able to avoid a Chapter 11 filing but we must also have management working together with all employees to incorporate employee input. Our existing Mechanics’ Agreement also has a provision (Letter 02-05M, page 209) calling for a process for resolving quality of work life issues. I believe that both of these elements are important in our recovery effort and I am committed to the realization of these goals
It will be my expectation that both of these processes be fully implemented, that decisions be made through these processes and that there be accountability in these processes along with measurable results. My executive vice president of operations will review the initial report on the work of these committees no later than June 1, 2003, and advise me on the outcome.
Our joint efforts toward improvements are critical to our long term success.
Sincerely,
Glenn F. Tilton
Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer
 
OP
A

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/2/2002 7:15:46 AM wts54 wrote:

They might as well not had any meetings.
I sure this is going to change all the no
votes magically to yes votes.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Did you really think they can change anything here? They need the concessions for board approval. Think about what your future with Ual will be working next to others who have lost money because of a militant stance taken by a few people. I don't think it will be very pretty.
You can live with this. It is just a question of will you.
 

wts54

Senior
Sep 16, 2002
374
0
www.usaviation.com
Im not talking about money issues that would
have cost ual.The problem is that this is likely
to make the voters more resolved to vote no.
Also since you think the IAM can just simply
be changed by "PARTICIPATING" the IAM wont allow
elections for scotty fords job.Democratic or not??
 
OP
A

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
Well it is time for the whole membership to get out and vote.
30% not showing up to vote on what I consider a life altering change seems to me as a failure to realize the seriousness of this situation.

For those that wanted the management to hear what you had to say, you have gotten their attention. They are aware of the issues involved and want input on your quality of life issues.

The next step is to vote yes and be a part of the process to make your life better instead of sitting back and complaining about it.

If you don't like something, try to change it by getting involved. A perfect example is the fact you don't like your union.
Wake up people! You are the union. Run for union positions. Get more involved. Change the bylaws to sit in on negotiations.
Be a part of the solution instead of the problem.

Remember! No matter who is at the head of the IAM or AMFA, they are not doing this for nothing. They have their own agendas, and sometimes membership is more important than the employees best interest.

Having more members because of work rules does not benefit anyone but the treasury. Most times it makes no difference to the employee at all, except in their wallet.

If your contracted to work 8 hours a day, they pay you 8 hours of pay, where does more employees help?

Work within the system to change it. It really does not matter who represents you, as long as the majority rules.

I know you are going to say they don't listen to the membership. Again, if you are not involved, don't ####. You guys are really the ones to blame.

CHANGE IT !!!
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
UAL777Flyer;
"Let's not forget what happened when US Airways mechanics had their second vote."

Thats right they voted Yes the second time, they were told that this would save their jobs, right after it passed USAIR annonced a layoff, then they closed a maintenance hub and just announced another 500 layoffs and the need for more concessions or else....
When will we ever learn?
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
atabuy;
What makes you think that the 30% that did not vote for 6 years of concessions would have voted YES?
 

UAL777flyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
730
0
Let's not forget what happened when US Airways mechanics had their second vote. Ya never know. The ERP might pass on the second try, now that clarifications have been issued. However, I still think it will fail because the mechanics (certainly not all of them) are hell bent on exacting some payback for the years of mismanagement of this airline. I understand where the frustration and anger is coming from. However, for the last two plus years, we've all complained about the void of leadership at this company and how it was eroding the quality of everyone's work environment. Well, we finally have a LEADER. He's a take-charge, no BS kind of guy. But in order for him to make the changes we all want to see, he needs ALL of us to work with him. It's really that simple. Taking out your frustrations at this time serves no other purpose than to sabotage any real effort at meaningful change for this airline. And that will ultimately be a painful journey for all of us, more so than many people realize.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
UAL777Flyer;
"However, I still think it will fail because the mechanics (certainly not all of them) are hell bent on exacting some payback for the years of mismanagement of this airline"

Thats bull and you know it. The mechanics just dont want to get suckered into another 6 year concessionary deal where they get to watch the company prosper as they are locked into a six year deal. What are you trying to do gather evidence so that if this ends up in front of a BK judge the company can claim that the mechanics did not have "good cause" for rejection? That they did this out of spite? Maybe the mechanics just demonstrated that they have learned from the past and are not stupid enough to be spooked into making the same mistake twice. Six years of concessions in an industry that is very cyclical, where in the past it has rebounded from record losses to record profits on multiple occasions in less than two years would be a dumb move by the mechanics.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/2/2002 6:50:51 AM atabuy wrote:

Well it is time for the whole membership to get out and vote.
30% not showing up to vote on what I consider a life altering change seems to me as a failure to realize the seriousness of this situation.

For those that wanted the management to hear what you had to say, you have gotten their attention. They are aware of the issues involved and want input on your quality of life issues.

The next step is to vote yes and be a part of the process to make your life better instead of sitting back and complaining about it.

If you don't like something, try to change it by getting involved. A perfect example is the fact you don't like your union.
Wake up people! You are the union. Run for union positions. Get more involved. Change the bylaws to sit in on negotiations.
Be a part of the solution instead of the problem.

Remember! No matter who is at the head of the IAM or AMFA, they are not doing this for nothing. They have their own agendas, and sometimes membership is more important than the employees best interest.

Having more members because of work rules does not benefit anyone but the treasury. Most times it makes no difference to the employee at all, except in their wallet.

If your contracted to work 8 hours a day, they pay you 8 hours of pay, where does more employees help?

Work within the system to change it. It really does not matter who represents you, as long as the majority rules.

I know you are going to say they don't listen to the membership. Again, if you are not involved, don't ####. You guys are really the ones to blame.

CHANGE IT !!!
----------------
[/blockquote]

6 years of concessions. SIX YEARS OF CONCESSIONS ! SIX YEARS OF CONCESSIONS! Didnt you guys go down this road already? Didnt the IAM tell you guys that with the ESOP that you all would be millionaires? Well you gave the company a six year concessionary package back in 94. They dragged out negotiations extending it to 7 years, agreed to retro but have you received any of it? Will you? Or in 2 months time will UAL do like USAIR and say they need more so say goodbye to your retro and a few more other things. Once you start on this road the company will continue to come back for more and more. They will do so as long as the opportunity exists and once theyve locked it all in there will be a "miracle" recovery like back in 95. As they all back slap each other and reward themselves with millions of dollars they will turn to you and say,"Sorry we have a contract, see you in 2008, or 9 or 10, Ha Ha Ha ".

The fact of the matter is that $600 million over the 6 years will not make or break the company, but it will have a big effect on your lives. If you vote YES thinking that it will prevent layoffs you are mistaken, just look at USAIR, they just announced 500 more mechanics are hitting the streets.

"They have their own agendas, and sometimes membership is more important than the employees best interest."

You are probably right. It will cost a lot more to fight the company and the courts and to wage a PR campain explaining the real reasons why the mechanics rejected this, does anyone really think it makes a whole hell of a lot of difference which days you dont get paid for? Sure, they were willing to give up the vacation, 6 years of concessions, paycuts and of course the clause if we go to war with IRAQ the whole thing goes out the window and they are free to come back for more and all the "protections" are gone but it was the fact that the unpaid vacation might be in February instead on November was the sole reason why they turned it down! What a farce! What the IAM is doing is using this "improvement" and the lie that the members rejected this 6 year concessionary deal because they could not choose the week that they dont get paid as a pretense to make you vote until you vote they way they want you to vote. In the meantime you will be barraged with all the worst case scenarios in order to Terrorize you into voting to surrender. What does the IAM say to the 141 members if the 141M members dont accept the cut? Now they are going to say that their members wont give either? After they overwhelmingly voted YES?
So the reason why the members rejected the 6 years of concessions that will end up leaving them with 20% less buying power than they have today was quality of work-life issues? Bull S--t! The members were probably told that the 6 year term and all the money issues were not negotiable and are not open for discussion so what else dont you like about the deal. When one member finally said what they wanted to hear they ran with it "oh yea let them pick which week they dont get paid for, sure that makes all the difference. Send out the Ballots along with all the propaganda telling them what could happen if they vote No." So the real issues were ignored and they come back with this BS about how the union is listening. They must have been listening when they decided that you would take a bigger cut than 141 members or the flight attendants. They must have been listening when they agreed to another 6 year concessionary agreement full of promises that will not be kept just like in 94. Like I said before if you vote NO you must also get rid of the IAM. They can not improve the deal because they recommended it. They have no desire to improve the deal. If they came back with a better deal how could they explain why they said to vote YES the first time? They will not do it. Vote No again, fill out your yellow cards and file to get a new Union that beleives that you are worth what you are getting and that you should not agree to paycuts- AMFA.
 

mwa

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
190
8
Just what choice do you have??? Grouse all you want but you are out of time!
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
0
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR][BR][BR]Here's one mech that will vote "Yes". Common fellow mechs, lets help the company out so it can take care of us. Bankruptcy is no way to go. We will lose more if we don't vote this in. Let's deal w/the other issues after we get this out of the way!!
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I meant "Come on" instead of common:)[/P]
 

ualdriver

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
509
0
As you guys read Bob Owens, remember he is an AA employee with a vested interest in the failue of United Airlines.
 

ualdriver

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
509
0
****Well you would have to be Stevie Wonder to not know why I've been posting since I've been honest and up front since the beginning.****

Yeah Bob. You've been honest and up front from the beginning. You're telling mechanics for a company that you don't even work for to make, what is in my opinion, an irrational decision that will almost certainly lead to a bankruptcy for United Airlines and a worsening of their already poorly perceived working conditions. Yet nowhere in your numerous diatribes where you're being "honest and up front" do you post that you don't even work for this airline, and that there is a conflict of interest between your stated opinions and your position with American Airlines, where you will more than likely benefit from a weakened United Airlines as a competitor.

And for the record, Bob, since I came up the civilian route to the major airlines, I made salaries far, far less than 60K a year for many years. So to answer your question, if my pay was cut to 60K or less tomorrow, I will be honest and say that it would hurt a bit, but I could EASILY support my family on that figure. But what pay has to do with your clear confict of interest is beyond me. Oh wait. I get it now. I'm an overpaid pilot who walked into my 325K/yr. salary and I just don't understand how hard it is to make 60K a year. The old overpaid pilot/underpaid mechanic divide and conquer argument. That's both clever and original, Bob.

So like I said before, and I will likely say again, if you're going to read Bob Owen's posts, be sure to understand that he is an AA employee and stands to gain from the failure of United Airlines.