Outsourcing Pilot And Fa Jobs?

[deltawatch]

I buried this in another thread, but I think it merits its own. AFA sent something out on it, below is part of it. U has announced that 75% of it's mainline fleet will be dedicated to point to point flying. Rumors in May were that U and Virgin America were talking. Could this be our future? I don't thing so, but its work watching.

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You've heard of "outsourcing"; think it can't happen to us?

Outsourcing could allow foreign air carriers to fly point-to-point within the United States for the first time in our history. We have heard a lot in the news media recently about the trend in corporate America of “outsourcingâ€￾ U.S. jobs to countries overseas. This is one of the most dangerous initiatives being promoted by those who don’t care whether or not American jobs are lost in the process.

This outsourcing is an issue that has been lingering in Congress for some time. Presently, Richard Branson of Virgin Atlantic is attempting to start up Virgin America. Branson has a history of undercutting the competition by paying his flight attendants minimum wage and providing next to nothing in benefits. He is also purported to have stated that flight attendants should never consider making the job a life long profession and should automatically retire at age 30. He has strong supporters in Congress that would like to see him enter the U.S. market and undercut our domestic carriers and American jobs.

 

[BoeingBoy]

deltawatch,

For the edification of others, since you probably already know this....

For flight crews (pilots/flight attendants), "outsourcing" is likely to come in the form of cabotage (if/when it comes). Cabotage means that an air carrier can provide service between points in a country other than it's "home" country. For example, BA could serve PHL-ORD.

As most probably know, the EU is pushing hard for a single aviation agreement covering the US-EU markets. One of the components of that agreement that they want badly is cabotage.

Jim

 

[WestCoastGuy]

If I remember correctly, PanAm had local rights to fly within Germany for years. I seem to remember when I was in the Army there, flying PanAm between Berlin and Frankfurt and between Frankfurt and Munich. You're right, most all the foreign flag carriers would expecially love to get cabotage rights within the US. And Branson and his Virgin Group is pushing the hardest for that. That would really put a big nail in the coffin of many domestic carriers here.

 

[Winglet]

Management has ALREADY outsource your jobs. They're called regional airlines paying half of what the majors were paying and with 401k retirement plans.

And, of course, the Europeans want cabotage. The US market is much larger than theirs. It's a coup for them if they get it . . . . and the Bush administration will probably give it to them after the election, if they win. Another way to drive down wages and emasculate the unions. What Kerry would do is anyone's guess. I haven't been able to figure out where he stands on anything . . . . and the more I hear him speak, the less I understand. Great choice this year. Two ultra-rich guys, one of which makes decisions without thinking, and the other one that can't make a decision, because he can't stop thinking.

 

[BoeingBoy]

WestCoastGuy,

You are absolutely correct about PanAm flying routes within Germany. If I'm not mistaken (and I could very well be), that originated in the post-WWII era when there was no German air carrier.

Jim

 

[Pacemaker]

They've been outsourcing pilot jobs since the early 90 's when they pulled back on west coast routes and replaced them with Transtates torboprops.

 

[deltawatch]

Some big IF's here. If this passed Congress and if some kind of deal between Virgin America and U happens, what kind of affect would it have on our system? I guess all of Virgin Atlantic’s transatlantic flights would stop on the east coast and then continue west. I wonder what kind of affect that would have on the number of transcontinental flights U offers?

 

[geo1004]

Qantas flies JFK-LAX-SYD but is not allowed to sell a "JFK-LAX ticket. But don't forget that UA flies lots of flights within Asia (NRT-ICN, HKG-SIN, etc etc) and also sells those flight to the local markets. Nothing new here except that our politicians have been good at stopping anyone but USA carriers from selling flights to Americans.

 

[Busdrvr]

Qantas flies JFK-LAX-SYD but is not allowed to sell a "JFK-LAX ticket. But don't forget that UA flies lots of flights within Asia (NRT-ICN, HKG-SIN, etc etc) and also sells those flight to the local markets. Nothing new here except that our politicians have been good at stopping anyone but USA carriers from selling flights to Americans.

So NRT and ICN are in the same country? HKG-SIN? please explain again what that has to do with flights that would originate in the US and terminate in the US?

 

[tinpadro]

I believe the cabotage door will open once local traffic rights are given to codeshare partners. LH flying from SFO-IAD then to FRA and selling SFO-IAD solely as a codeshare flight. Currently they cannot sell that alone as a UA operated flight. The future could be let them fly the local part too. Just call it a codeshare and the plane will still eventually leave the country. With codeshare being what it is, passengers barely have a clue who they are flying on anyway. Its hard to keep up. I think thats how it will begin. Slipped in under the codeshare banner.

 

[USFlyer]

So NRT and ICN are in the same country? HKG-SIN? please explain again what that has to do with flights that would originate in the US and terminate in the US?

Don't confuse cabotage with Fifth Freedom rights.

 

[usairfa05]

Pan-Am had a base in Berlin because the city was controlled by the allies. No German Carrier or any other carrier could enter the city without the permission of the allied forces. Pan-Am serviced FRA,MUC, and an northern city in Germany because these were the only three corridors into and out of Berlin. The crews were mainline pilots and local hire Flight Attendants. After Pan-Am then TWA came into the city.

 

[mweiss]

the Europeans want cabotage. . . . and the Bush administration will probably give it to them after the election, if they win.

Given his distain for foreign nations in general, the lack of German and French nationals voting in US Presidential elections, and the pandering of the current administration to US-based companies, I fail to see why the Bush administration would support cabotage.

 

[The Gopher]

Lifting the ban on foreign carriers is long overdue. Think about aviation with its flag carriers and byzantine rules: Is there a "flag" car manufacturer? A "flag" petroleum/oil company? It's Nonsense. We can buy Dutch gas (Shell), talk on our German mobile phone (T-Mobile), and drive a Pontiac GTO (Australia).

If Virgin is allowed to come to the US, and US carriers to Europe, understand that it will be a US-based subsidiary, not foreign workers. At IKEA, Shell, and your VW dealer, you have Americans working, not foreigners. Same principle. There will NOT be foreign workers on US-operated aircraft, it is a US-based business. Think of the BMW factory in North Carolina, or Honda building cars in Indiana. Those are American workers in there, making US dollars, paying US taxes! And this is somehow bad for them?

There are several benefits for the airline worker:
- Better financing. Airlines can get financing from global sources, meaning better equipped fleets, better financial leveraging, and more stable capital management.

- Better pay. With more airlines operating, demand for your services goes up (pilot, FA, mech, etc). This is the last industry to not join the global economy, ironic since it is global by its very nature.

- The benefits of a true open market. If the big US carriers want to start intra-Europe flights to compete, we certainly can compete better than the basket-case airlines such as Alitalia, Swiss, and Air France.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The Gopher,

"There will NOT be foreign workers on US-operated aircraft, it is a US-based business."

The reason it is US-based is because of those bysantine rules - no cabotage, limits on foreign ownership/control, etc.

Jim