Piedmont/ALG skipping to PSA!

Aug 8, 2004
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So have you heard? March, PSA is being forced by Mainline to take more APL pilots under the J4J protocol agreement. Only problem is, MDA pilots all managed to get a seniority number at Mainline (some of course had one already) but now former Piedmont and Allegheny Dash-8 drivers who went to MDA now are taking the back-door route as they have no-where else to go. Seems like Mainline is trying to wangle out of the pending law-suit and pass the problem off by insisting they have a place to go to at PSA. These lucky F/O's who flew a Dash 8, now get to beat existing PSA First Officers to a CA slot at PSA, AND get slotted bidding for quality of life. You can be the reception won't be pleasant when they arrive on the property.
 
Would you rather they go to Republic?

Why don't the pilot groups- US, HP, MD, furlough, PT, PS sort this stuff all out once and for all and come up with a single seniority list. Now is the time during the big transiton. Get some balls and put some scope language in too, so your not fighting over 30 50 seaters while contracors fly 100 90 seaters. If they want an LCC they need one team, not whipsawing.

The fact that a wholly owned pilot would give a bad reception to a fellow mainline or wholly owned pilot who is a victim of outsourcing is absurd. Direct the energy where it needs to go.
 
Would you rather they go to Republic?

Why don't the pilot groups- US, HP, MD, furlough, PT, PS sort this stuff all out once and for all and come up with a single seniority list. Now is the time during the big transiton. Get some balls and put some scope language in too, so your not fighting over 30 50 seaters while contracors fly 100 90 seaters. If they want an LCC they need one team, not whipsawing.

The fact that a wholly owned pilot would give a bad reception to a fellow mainline or wholly owned pilot who is a victim of outsourcing is absurd. Direct the energy where it needs to go.
I agree entirely. Only thing is, Mainline has always treated PSA like a bastard-step-child and could have saved themselves years ago with a flow-through and flow-down. Only they were looking after themselves and their own jobs. I'd bet there wouldn't be 1700 on furlough if they had thought long-term and now in order to "fix" the little MDA problem they created, they are going to pass the problem down to PSA using the J4J agreement. The Mainline Furlough (APL) list was never intended to be added to from the bottom. Only from the top. Until Mainline pilots bring their WO brothers and sisters under one list, the whipsawing will continue. Meanwhile, Mesa is more than happy to provide the 90 seaters and their even being painted in the new colors so guess they'll be around for awhile. Incidentally, the bad reception intended is justified. There are many more senior pilots at PSA to the new APL (Piedmont/ALG) MDA furloughees who would deserve a mainline seniority number and haven't been offered one.
 
I don't get the wholly owned divisions anyway. We're all basicly C-Scale USAirways employees.. why can't someone in CCY or Tempe just admit that and get rid of all these different "divisions".

In regards to PSA, I've been told by a friend at Bombardier that they are getting 10 more CRJ 700s very soon....

Heck, didn't America West pioneer commuters as mainline when they flew 8 Dash 8-100s under the HP banner in the early 90s?
 
I don't get the wholly owned divisions anyway. We're all basicly C-Scale USAirways employees.. why can't someone in CCY or Tempe just admit that and get rid of all these different "divisions".

In regards to PSA, I've been told by a friend at Bombardier that they are getting 10 more CRJ 700s very soon....

Heck, didn't America West pioneer commuters as mainline when they flew 8 Dash 8-100s under the HP banner in the early 90s?
get rid of these 'divisions'?
you might want to check some of the business documents, but pdt, psa and usairways airlines are all 'wholly owned divisions' of usairways group...
psa and pdt are not 'sub-classes' of "mainline" or owned by them either
 
get rid of these 'divisions'?
you might want to check some of the business documents, but pdt, psa and usairways airlines are all 'wholly owned divisions' of usairways group...
psa and pdt are not 'sub-classes' of "mainline" or owned by them either
It has always been to Managements advantage to have PSA and Piedmont (the express W/O's) not only for regional flying but for whipsawing and to hide debt (not that that helped from bankruptcy). PSA has always made a profit but it's employees are constantly aware that "flying can be given away" "aircraft can be returned" "the buildings are all leasted" "it could be sold at a profit to Mesa or god-knows who" etc etc and this has kept the wages low and a continued "cheap" operation. Now with Phoenix wondering what PSA and Piedmont really do, and with money in the bank, probably it's good time for the secrets to escape further than Dayton, OH and agreed, create one seniority list for Pilots & F/A's to provide better career moves, and put all the aircraft together in scheduling, operations etc. It would be far more efficient and certainly better than what is attempted by PSA (or Piedmont if that is the case also) for a LCC.
 
I can only hope that in the near future that US Airways slowly gets rid of all these contract carriers! Keeping all flying in house helps produce a better product. You think that Mesa cared that US Airways was about to go tits up? They contract with 4 other airlines that compete directly with each other.
A ops lady told me the other day, that United Airlines in CLT calls the US Airways side looking for Crews.... So basically there pilots are flying a couple of legs on the United side and then a couple on US side. In the meantime flights are Cx and delayed because of Crews. That is crazy!! Wake up, wake up Group!!
AirWilly I have no problem with! They invested money, and have a stake in the success of US Airways! Mesa, well they are the 'Parasites' of the industry. That CRJ-900 with the FO making 20k a year just gets me sick. Knowing that it replaced a mainline 737 and making my jump to a major even longer!
I just wish that we would lump all the WO's and Mainline together. One seniority flying all aircraft 'BY US AIRWAYS'!! People getting hired in the future would go right into the Dash or CRJ and working there way up. I think then you wouldn't see people leaving the company left and right, with them knowning they had a bright future if they stayed.
I think you would see a much better product!
 
I just wish that we would lump all the WO's and Mainline together. One seniority flying all aircraft 'BY US AIRWAYS'!! People getting hired in the future would go right into the Dash or CRJ and working there way up. I think then you wouldn't see people leaving the company left and right, with them knowning they had a bright future if they stayed.
I think you would see a much better product!

WSurf,

I agree with this part of your post. However, I recognize it is "wishfull" thinking. Mgt has zero desire or intention of an unified labor group. Far easier for Mgt to transfer your reasonable income level to thier pocket by keeping you all fighting and competing against each other. Hence the reason for all the scope clauses by mainline in the past. Best of luck.

FA
 
Sure,

Why not merge PSA and USAirways. Date of hire should work.

95% of the existing PSA pilots can collect their last paycheck while a few hundred furloughees come to work.

PSA Junior High - Wanting Something for Nothing Since 1995.


Can't speak for 1995. It's funny though how the mainline didn't want to get RJ's during the big boom while all their other competitors where taking them by the 100's, not the dozens with LOA 79.

Forget the past, as it will do us no good to go over it again. What is happening now with the former ALG and PDT Fo's coming to PSA as captains is just plainly wrong and against everything that was agreed to. PSA has played by the rules, time for mainline to stop rewriting them........
 
having been around a long time, my observation is that this whole flow-up, flow-down thing has been a can of worms for as long as there's been wholly-owned express carriers.

In good times when mainline is hiring, the express side would love flow-up but the mainline side could care less (Hey, as long as they're junior we don't care where they come from)

In bad times when mainline is furloughing, the mainline side clamors for flow-down but the express side isn't interested. (Wait, now, if they're gonna be senior we're not interested)

Then there's the management aspect - even if agreement is reached between the mainline & express folks, management has to agree (which probably gives leverage to the mainline side if something is worked out). Flow-up in good times means training two people for every mainline "new hire" opening - the pilot flowing up to mainline and his replacement at express. Flow-down in bad times means training the mainline furloughee for their express job when none would be required to put them on the street.

Back in the 80's, after PI bought what was Henson Aviation at the time (now PDT), I was surprised at how hard it was for a Henson pilot to be hired at PI. Since I was involved in screening applicants at the time, I can attest to the fact that it wasn't that we screeners didn't want them - it was that we never saw their applications. Somewhere above us in management ranks, those applications were largely weeded out.

At this point in time, I certainly don't have the answer. But it looks like this whole issue is just going to fester along.

Jim
 
Would you rather they go to Republic?

Why don't the pilot groups- US, HP, MD, furlough, PT, PS sort this stuff all out once and for all and come up with a single seniority list. Now is the time during the big transiton. Get some balls and put some scope language in too, so your not fighting over 30 50 seaters while contracors fly 100 90 seaters. If they want an LCC they need one team, not whipsawing.

The fact that a wholly owned pilot would give a bad reception to a fellow mainline or wholly owned pilot who is a victim of outsourcing is absurd. Direct the energy where it needs to go.
They should have to start over they are not part of the deal. The choice was theirs and they left Piedmont/Allegeny just like other airline employees quit one airline for another.
 
I just wish that we would lump all the WO's and Mainline together. One seniority flying all aircraft 'BY US AIRWAYS'!! People getting hired in the future would go right into the Dash or CRJ and working there way up. I think then you wouldn't see people leaving the company left and right, with them knowning they had a bright future if they stayed.
I think you would see a much better product!

Like I said before, most of the Express divisions know that they're basicly C-Scale USAirways employees.. why not just make it official? Merge PSA/PDT into the New USAirways and get it over with!
 
why not just make it official? Merge PSA/PDT into the New USAirways and get it over with!

If I could somehow wave a magic wand and make it so, it would have happened a long time ago, along with the disappearance of the contract operators. One airline, one seniority list.

However, as someone mentioned earlier, the answer to your question is one word - management.

As far as I know, since the beginning of the "RJ" era only three airlines have even come as close as having most/all their jet express feed wholly owned - AMR, DAL, & CAL. Of course, DAL sold off a good chunk of theirs recently and CAL spun off theirs a while back (keeping a large interest). That leaves AMR as the only airline that I know of that owns the vast majority of its feed.

Jim
 
They should have to start over they are not part of the deal. The choice was theirs and they left Piedmont/Allegeny just like other airline employees quit one airline for another.

Yes, but they left Piedmont/Allegheny to go to mainline, where they were laid off and therefore become a mainline furloughee. PSA agreed to J4J. You want 28 props no movement, fine, you want new jets, half the jobs go to furloughed mainline who bought the planes with concessions and allowed the scope to fly them.

Again, everyone should push for one airline, one seniority list made up of US and the subsidiaries. Include Air Wisconsin because they have put a clear interest and investment in US. DOH all around. If LCC wants to be the next generation, network low cost carrier with great morale then maybe they should start thinking out of the box.