Pilot Concessions

[Kev3188]

Pilots cave.....

Hope you're not expecting the rest of us to jump right in with you....

 

[Bigsky]

Obviously, NWA needs to continue cutting costs to survive. I don't really consider NWA ALPA to be caving in as they did not offer a UAL/LCC type contract that is not amendable until 2009 but instead they are going with an "investment strategy" that would provide a mutual benefit and would be amendable in 2006. Nothing is for certain until all parties have signed on the dotted line but what is certain is that all NWA unions will have to participate before cost cutting measures concerning labor would be effective.

cheers

bigsky

 

[C54Capt]

Bigsky,
You guys need to take a healthy pay cut to preserve your airline's great relative industry financial position. Just don't sell the farm like UA. Make sure you are compensated in other ways and you have a snap back when this economy and industry recover. Good luck.

 

[Red Tail Bear]

What type of concessions are the NWA Management offering? Why are we not hearing a splash in the concession pool from them?

 

[Kev3188]

What type of concessions are the NWA Management offering? Why are we not hearing a splash in the concession pool from them?

We did hear a little splash...They offered to take some concessions, "right after one of the unions does." Also, they love to talk up how much the mgmt. ranks have been thinned; the truth is the people going out the door are not mgmt. per se (or what I'd typically consider a manager), but rather any regular employees not covered by CBA's. :angry: :angry: More lies and spin from the masters of labor strife. I'm just waiting for Richard Anderson to start talking in "Newspeak."

 

[nwa_dc10]

Pilots cave.....

Hope you're not expecting the rest of us to jump right in with you....

Have you noticed that the airlines that have "restructured" their wage scales are reporting significantly lower 1Q losses than NWA? To quote the Borg, "resistance is futile."

QUOTE (Red Tail Bear @ Apr 26 2004, 06:46 AM)
What type of concessions are the NWA Management offering? Why are we not hearing a splash in the concession pool from them?

We did hear a little splash...They offered to take some concessions, "right after one of the unions does." Also, they love to talk up how much the mgmt. ranks have been thinned; the truth is the people going out the door are not mgmt. per se (or what I'd typically consider a manager), but rather any regular employees not covered by CBA's. More lies and spin from the masters of labor strife. I'm just waiting for Richard Anderson to start talking in "Newspeak."

I've heard that NWA Management will take a 10% - 15% cut as soon as the Pilots agree to concessions. I asked why Management doesn't take the initiative and agree to pay cuts before anyone else, and was told that the Executives believe that if Management unilaterally takes a cut, no one else will follow.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

SO, In a sense, we've got the proverbial "Mexican Standoff" $$$$ ??

NH/BB's

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I read a recent article(The Street.com) about "Big Red".

It went on to say that because NW/ALPA was very aware of NW's current $$ situation, AND the fact that they were willing to give back 2 million, coupled with NW's,

1. "Stage length" (BEST in the industry ....$$$$$)

and

2. That they're virtually unchallenged by LCC's(no MSP, MEM and little DTW),
that NW stock is under valued. This coming from airline analyst Helene Becker. (I forgot her company, but always remember her, because she's only 1 of 2 female airline analyst's, Susan Donofrio the other)

Bottom line, I agree with her.

Asia is booming, and minus anymore SARS scares, this play right into NW hands.

This(IMHO) also puts Andersen on the spot about ALPA's offer of $200M.

Nw is NOT in the same boat as UA/US. Therefore I think Andersen is going to have to take ALPA'S offer.

(speaking from hourly rates of pay only) Mr. Andersen can "FORGETABOUTIT", as far as squeezing cash from the IAM(ESE"s), because they are already at the same rate of pay as the "MODEL" Fleet Service Clerks at AA !!!!!!!

Not sure about the NW F/A's $$$, plus they've OUTSOURCED the livin" #### out of AMFA.

Unless I'm missing something, that leaves only MORE automation negatively $$$ effecting the agents, and finally the "suits" at EGAN, MN. !!!!!!


NH/BB's(RETIRED)AA

(NOW ROOTING FOR "BIG RED")

 

[NWACSA]

I read a recent article(The Street.com) about "Big Red".

It went on to say that because NW/ALPA was very aware of NW's current $$ situation, AND the fact that they were willing to give back 2 million, coupled with NW's,

1. "Stage length" (BEST in the industry ....$$$$$)

and

2. That they're virtually unchallenged by LCC's(no MSP, MEM and little DTW),
that NW stock is under valued. This coming from airline analyst Helene Becker. (I forgot her company, but always remember her, because she's only 1 of 2 female airline analyst's, Susan Donofrio the other)

Bottom line, I agree with her.

Asia is booming, and minus anymore SARS scares, this play right into NW hands.

This(IMHO) also puts Andersen on the spot about ALPA's offer of $200M.

Nw is NOT in the same boat as UA/US. Therefore I think Andersen is going to have to take ALPA'S offer.

(speaking from hourly rates of pay only) Mr. Andersen can "FORGETABOUTIT", as far as squeezing cash from the IAM(ESE"s), because they are already at the same rate of pay as the "MODEL" Fleet Service Clerks at AA !!!!!!!

Not sure about the NW F/A's $$$, plus they've OUTSOURCED the livin" #### out of AMFA.

Unless I'm missing something, that leaves only MORE automation negatively $$$ effecting the agents, and finally the "suits" at EGAN, MN. !!!!!!


NH/BB's(RETIRED)AA

(NOW ROOTING FOR "BIG RED")

While NW has a good cash position, you must remember that the cash on hand is borrowed money and there are some sizeable debt payments coming due in the coming months.

While the employees (ground service at least) at AA and UA may be paid at comparable or slightly higher rates that those of NW (at top scale) their scale is at different increments (and a lower starting salary) AND more importantly they pay for insurance and gave back vacation days and some holidays in their concessions agreements. The AA ground employees (customer service) are also non-union which mean no costly work rules and alot more part-timers...bottom line, you can't compare ONLY the top pay rates when comparing NW, AA and UA in your no-concessions agruement. I think any AA or UA employee would trade places (or at least contracts) wth NW.

On the no-LCC competition arguement, it's misleading...while NW's hubs (for the most part) are with minimal LCC competition, NW competes against LCCs in many markets, many where the LCC offers non-stop flights and NW only offers a connection. The LCCs have the power of price controls and NW must match to compete, even though it costs the company alot more to offer its product ...that is the core of the entire problem. The company faces three options in competing with an LCC: 1) Lower it's costs to a comparable level with the competition 2) Charge a higher price for it's product (and offer a premium product that people would pay for and likely lose market share) or 3) Get out of the market. At losses over $1 million per-day this arguement cannot go on for too much longer...I'm the last one to want concessions but reality is reality...and I will not vote for any concessions agreements th not include pofit-sharing or performance bonuses. B)

 

[Kev3188]

...I'm the last one to want concessions but reality is reality...and I will not vote for any concessions agreements th not include pofit-sharing or performance bonuses. B)

Well, CSA, the "reality" is that with the latest Skycap deal for the hubs, the company never even gave you a chance to vote. Hopefully, the IAM will get this to arbitration and win, but if you're not severely bent by now, you can't be helped. I'd be happy to be corrected, though.

 

[NWACSA]

Well, CSA, the "reality" is that with the latest Skycap deal for the hubs, the company never even gave you a chance to vote. Hopefully, the IAM will get this to arbitration and win, but if you're not severely bent by now, you can't be helped. I'd be happy to be corrected, though.

Kev, I'm not here to argue or judge...I'm willing to accept that the industry has changed dramatically in the past years and will continue to do so...like it or not. If NW does not become competitive product-wise and cost-wise, it will cease to exist in a few years. The company is going to cut costs anywhere it can...if it means replacing bag-taggers with skycaps (that's all the skycaps will be allowed to do), so be-it...I may not agree with it, but if that's the level of customer service the company chooses to offer, I accept that. I also accept that NW is not here to employ me, it's here to make a profit for it's owners/investors and by doing so, I can be more secure in keeping my employment status with the company, should I CHOOSE to work for them--and I will choose to work for them as long as I feel I am paid fairly for the skills I offer the company in my job function.
My point in my previous post is that we must look at hte WHOLE picture when comparing our pay/benefits level with those of UA or AA...to only compare the hourly wage is short-sided.
If I should be "bent" by everything, I guess I should feel that way if I listened to my great IAM , I guess I still need some brain-washing...if I listened to some of our lame union stewards, there's an office in MSP somewhere where they do nothing but plot ways to piss off employees...give me a break!

 

[NWA/AMT]

...if I listened to some of our lame union stewards, there's an office in MSP somewhere where they do nothing but plot ways to piss off employees...

Some days I think that's not so far fetched. Remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. 😉

 

[NWACSA]

Some days I think that's not so far fetched. Remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. 😉

NW's problem, which has been a problem for a long time, is that is strictly a bottom-line carrier...it doesn't look at much of anything but what makes a dime, if it screws the employee out of something, so be it. There will always be this managment/union relationship as an "us vs. them" until Anderson and the boys make an effort to change it...so far, their efforts have been only words, their actions usually the opposite. One thing I would change immediately is the F3 and F5 standby priorities...because you are a union employee, you should be treated as a lower priority? NOt buying back the 93 concessions stock is another issue but I understand NW's creditors had some influence in that decision...I could go on. Getting employee feedback/suggestions might help before a major decision is made (such as the insurance changes a couple of years ago) instead of just announcing it saying "here it is, like it or not"...OK, I'm rambling, time to go night-night. :blink:

:unsure:

 

[NWA/AMT]

One of my biggest issues with NWA has to do with not only how they deal with the unions but extends to how they deal with any organization or individual with whom the have contact. In short, NWA views any part of any sort of agreement which is of benefit to them as if it were written in stone and any part of any agreement which benefits the other party as being a variable only to be determined by NWA and if you don't like it then you'll have a fight on your hands. NWA interpretations always benefit them directly and anyone else only indirectly and incidentally (or accidentally).

For example, having attended our last contract negotiations and seeing the discussions on a particular piece of language, I felt sure that both parties understood and agreed on not only the language but the intent behind it. However, once the particular piece of language went into force then lo and behold the NWA interpretation was completely different and exactly the opposite of their previously stated intent. Not only that but their interpretation made them no money and wound up costing them more. It then took months and many thousands of dollars to win through arbitration that which even the arbitrator observed that NWA had very clearly agreed to in the beginning.

Again, this is not only how they deal with the employees but also how they deal with suppliers, vendors, and even customers. The lack of trust such a relationship engenders helps explain not only NWA's fractious labor history but also their customer service reputation, a reputation that ensures despite the best efforts of many of NWA's employees. If given the choice of a penny now or a dollar later they will always take the penny regardless of the consequences.

When you consider how we were treated during the last concessions, concessions which were of a limited duration, is it any surprise that we refuse to be rushed into permanent concessions now? If NWA is indeed in as dire a situation as they say, when you consider the lack of trust they have actively cultivated, is it any surprise that no one rushes to help them?

 

[JetClipper]

Again, this is not only how they deal with the employees but also how they deal with suppliers, vendors, and even customers. The lack of trust such a relationship engenders helps explain not only NWA's fractious labor history but also their customer service reputation, a reputation that ensures despite the best efforts of many of NWA's employees. If given the choice of a penny now or a dollar later they will always take the penny regardless of the consequences.

When you consider how we were treated during the last concessions, concessions which were of a limited duration, is it any surprise that we refuse to be rushed into permanent concessions now? If NWA is indeed in as dire a situation as they say, when you consider the lack of trust they have actively cultivated, is it any surprise that no one rushes to help them?

Sadly, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

NWA, like the other legacy carriers, will no doubt need concessions from all work groups (including Management) to survive in the long term. However, the deep distrust they've cultivated over the years will make reaching agreements a painful exercise at best. One can only hope that when push comes to shove clearer heads will prevail, and both sides will do what needs to be done while protecting everyone’s best interest.

We’ll see.