Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[Flyz4food]

As I said..Believe what you will otherwise. It serves no purpose, and really doesn't much matter, if you're just going to sit on the sidelines, busying yourself cheering on some fantasy. There's no shortage of accumulated material that well serves mutual animosity and mistrust. I'll simply ask you if you honestly believe that the east pilots aren't interested in more money and better working conditions and benefits? If that "makes sense" to you..then follow the bitterest of yours out there bent on rancour and BS at any cost.

I absolutely firmly believe that the East is looking for more money, benefits and working conditions. I really do. We also want that. What I also firmly believe, as do many of my fellow coworkers, that in order for you to acheive it, you will sell out the west. It's been stated, the premise of USAPA is just that, please prove me wrong.

 

[Flyz4food]

The campaign is over. The cost neutral statement harped on by the west was taken completely out of context. Then grew into it's own issue. The big lie theory strikes again. That's OK, if it makes you feel better to believe that, go ahead. The next contract will not be as good as it should be because of our division.

Yep you're right about the next contract. It will have to be ratified by one group only. The only problem I see is what Doug will do in light of the present economics. But his statement about one contract and one pay scale is very telling. Have been told over and over to enjoy LOA93 for a long time. I hope it doesn't mean that all of us will be enjoying it. But divided as we are, to my west brethren the decision time is fast approaching. Which starting point do you think Doug will use? Yours or mine?

And you are satisfied with LOA93? This doesn't make sense at all. Vote in a new union, piss off half of the membership, and seek lower wages. What am I missing here.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

And you are satisfied with LOA93? This doesn't make sense at all. Vote in a new union, piss off half of the membership, and seek lower wages. What am I missing here.

Actually nothing except reality. I despise LOA93 as much as anybody. Especially the 190 pay rates. But what you're missing is the division that keeps us separate. Which by default will give us a lessor contract than what could realistically achieved.Why don't you prove me wrong and support the new union til we get a new contract. Then make your decision to stay or leave.

 

[EastUS]

What I also firmly believe, as do many of my fellow coworkers, that in order for you to acheive it, you will sell out the west.

OK. In what ways? What do you see developing via contract negotiations?

"And you are satisfied with LOA93?" The only people we've seen not only "satisfied" but actually loudly gloating over '93 has been your group. Essentially: "Give us our Nic!!"...or "You can live on LOA93 forever!!"/etc. No matter....let's work from what circumstances we have now. As I"ve noted: There's ample reasons for mutual contempt and animosity...none of which serves us well in any attempts to progress as a group.

 

[Flyz4food]

OK. In what ways? What do you see developing via contract negotiations?

"And you are satisfied with LOA93?" The only people we've seen not only "satisfied" but actually loudly gloating over '93 has been your group. No matter....let's work from what circumstances we have now.

Hmmm...let's see. DOH, lifetime fences, pay cuts, furlough.

 

[b737fo]

Now that we are one union it will be interesting to see when the Westies will get their IOU seats for bidding on the E190 and 757. Who knows though? That was two ALPA groups that participated in that arbitration and some on here believe that then means the arbitrated results have no teeth.

Back to a question I threw out there before. What is the level of interest that all of the pilots (East and West) here have in starting/continuing to use a PBS system to construct the monthly lines of flying? I have flown using PBS and regular lines and prefer the former much more.

 

[EastUS]

Hmmm...let's see. DOH, lifetime fences, pay cuts, furlough.

Sigh..I give up for now. Yours is currently, indeed, naught but a whine-fest. Suddenly; the flying you had/have/will get isn't enough...again?....and; you're magically now concerned with furloughed people?...or..only if it might someday be YOU? Shame on you sir! St. Nic would be appalled!! 🙄

Have a good evening.

 

[Pilot692]

Back to a question I threw out there before. What is the level of interest that all of the pilots (East and West) here have in starting/continuing to use a PBS system to construct the monthly lines of flying? I have flown using PBS and regular lines and prefer the former much more.

PBS=DOA

 

[sharktooth]

I have flown using PBS and regular lines and prefer the former much more.

Both the pilots and the FAs looked at PBS as long ago as 1991 and it has turned out to be a non-starter. One big reason is the company limits the computing resources resulting in about a 5% solution. The FAs looked into it in greater detail than the pilots and, eventually, even they were not impressed.

The east bidding system has numerous opportunities to modify ones line of flying, and, for instance, giving up a daily bid sheet for PBS is considered unacceptable.

The pilots have consistently tried to computerize things like the daily bid sheet but the company seemingly wants to control who goes into what trip. Costly micromanagement seems the word of the day these last twenty years.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

PBS=DOA

Ditto.

 

[767jetz]

What you're not acknowledging is that arbitration was the only route through ALPA, the east nor the west had any say over that... it was under the infamous ALPA Merger "policy", "guidelines" what ever term du jour they decided to call it. So if we're at a stalemate, what is the resolution?... I know arbitration... final and binding.

Actually, arbitration was not your only route. The first route was true negotiation, (which includes coming up with alternatives besides, "here's what we want... take it or leave it."). Then comes mediation. Again this requires you coming off your single minded position and meeting in the middle. Didn't happen. Then finally came binding arbitration. At any point along the way you could have actually directed your negotiators to negotiate instead of threatening them with recall if they didn't tote the line with DOH. They even told you that the arbitrator would rule against you if you didn't come up with alternatives, and your guys STILL wouldn't budge.

So please don't cry foul and play the victims of big bad ALPA when in reality you could have easily avoided the award by actually negotiating. And by the way, binding arbitration is now the law in an impasse, regardless of the name of your union. You wanted it to go to arbitration because you were so sure you would get what you wanted. And when you had your last warning that it wouldn't go your way, your guys had no other plan. In fact the first words from your group back in 2000 when the last US/UA merger attempt happened was, "see you in arbitration."

So let's say you didn't have arbitration. Let's say you reached the same impasse but there was no binding arbitration. What then? What policy could possibly encourage a fair outcome without a neutral third party? Oh yeah... you'll say DOH with restrictions, which conveniently happens to be your only goal in the first place. Seems like we keep coming back full circle to same old thing. The problem is that your small group are the only ones in the industry that think DOH is fair and equitable in a merger. There's your first clue that you guys are off the reservation.

Look, this is the same old debate with a different shingle on the door that says USAPA instead of ALPA. The west will never agree to a DOH integration, and you guys will never agree to relative seniority where you keep what you had before. So you will go around in circles and exhaust every legal avenue to have your way. And after all that time and effort it will not come down to majority rules, but rather who has the best legal argument. And this is where binding arbitration will continue to loom over your head. Your integration will be decided in a court room. Guaranteed.

 

[drrstrav]

I like how the west thinks Binding arbitration counts under a new union. My best comparison to Alpa/USAPA is if a husband and wife get divorced in the united states and split legal rights 50/50 to their child, and then later they both move to europe....they do not have to follow the 50/50 split in legal rights to the child. they are now citizens of a diferent country and therefore the the rules of the U.S. do not apply.

Same goes for arbitration. Now that we are no longer ALPA, we no longer have to go by their arbitration.

Wrong, Just because you move to one of the EU country, it DOESN'T make you a CITIZEN of that country, only a RESIDENT , MAY BE. Some of the EU laws, are more stringent than the US laws, and there is a prevelant practice of reciprocity with US. Hence, you might need to use different analogy.

 

[EastUS]

So please don't cry foul and play the victims of big bad ALPA ...

Alpo's neither "big" nor "bad" around here, and not tough at all it seems, regardless of ALL the consumate, and continual BS/FUD/Stupidity/etc your sorry sorts chose to put out over recent months..and apparently you yet feel some bizarre need to continually do. 😉 In fact?; It's quite possibly, fast on it's way to becoming "dead" in fact...where have you been all month? 🙄 Thanks though; I can always enjoy more Alpoid "jokes"...as when you were suggesting that people would, even could, "change their votes" once cast during the last election. Keep preaching/ranting...it's quite amusing. One MIGHT think that, instead of preaching the same old/same old BS...you, as a "concerned pilot" sort...would better spend your efforts at enhancing Alpo's usefullness (which certainly wouldn't take much to do)..lest thousands more exit the fold due to the simple stench of intolerable BS...your problem...no longer ours...

Reaches for Alpo-Fly swatter.....

 

[767jetz]

Now that we are no longer ALPA, we no longer have to go by their arbitration.

What a ridiculous and legally inaccurate statement!

First of all the arbitration was not "theirs" as in ALPA's. It was YOURS, as in you entered into a legal contract. Your analogy is painfully irrelevant. It is more like a murderer sentenced to death row claiming that the conviction belonged to his lawyer, and since he fired the guy and got a new one, it doesn't count any more.

Imagine what our country would be like if people or groups could enter into legal contracts, only to have buyers remorse and get out of those contracts after the fact buy just getting new representation.

If your "divorce" from ALPA had occurred before the Nicolau award, then you could have started over and negotiated from scratch with a new collective bargaining agent. But do-overs after the fact rarely happen in a court of law.

 

[EastUS]

If your "divorce" from ALPA had occurred before the Nicolau award, then you could have started over and negotiated from scratch with a new collective bargaining agent. But do-overs after the fact rarely happen in a court of law.

"I can always enjoy more Alpoid "jokes"...as when you were suggesting that people would, even could, "change their votes" once cast during the last election." Thanks again for your "expert" opinion on yet another issue... 🙄

"Imagine what our country would be like if people or groups could enter into legal contracts, only to have buyers remorse and get out of those contracts after the fact buy just getting new representation."

That's but brandished ignorance imagined as fact. Welcome to actual reality within our nation. While no holder of a JD, I've a goodly amount of practical experience with various contracts, and I can comfortably assure you that plentifull reasons/circumstances can sometimes occur, which serve to invalidate such.