Pilot Pension Progress?

C

chipmunn

Guest
It has come to my attention that Thursday night before the bankruptcy hearing US Airways suddenly changed their pilot pension plan termination petition.
This move may dramatically open up possibilities of a new deal between the company and the pilot group, which is much more to the liking of ALPA. Reports indicate ALPA's attorneys implied that this was movement in the right direction; however, it remains to be seen if this last minute offer will be acceptable.
Meanwhile, after receiving the company's new proposal the hearing began on Friday. During opening remarks, ALPA attorney Richard Seltzer started out very impassioned, stating that while the attorneys for both sides of the issue will move on and fight other cases at the conclusion of this one, the pilots, their wives, widows and children will have to live with and be impacted by these proceedings for the rest of their lives.
Also noteworthy, both sides made statements to the effect that the pilots had made the most substantial sacrifices of any participants. In fact, all courtroom participants were very deferential to the pilots and treated our group with much appreciated respect and condolences on our plight.
Then US Airways attorney John Butler told the court that nobody feels comfortable terminating the pension of the group that, of all employees, has almost single handedly through their sacrifices, saved this company, thus far.
Therefore, the court and the company fully recognize the enormous pilot sacrifices made so this airline can survive.
Separately, it was considered significant that the RSA representative admitted that there are potentially other ways to satisfy the final DIP investment conditions, other than to terminate the pilot pension plan.
Chip
 

delldude

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[blockquote]
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On 2/22/2003 9:21:01 PM chipmunn wrote:


Then US Airways attorney John Butler told the court that nobody feels comfortable terminating the pension of the group that, of all employees, has almost single handedly through their sacrifices, "saved" this company, thus far.
**** THIS MAKES ME FEEL JUST PEACHY ABOUT ALL THE LABOR GROUPS 'CONTRIBUTIONS 'SO FAR***AND YOU GUYS WHINE ABOUT AANIMOSITY BETWEEN THE LABOR GROUPS*********Therefore, the court and the company fully recognize the enormous pilot sacrifices made so this airline can survive.

Separately, it was considered significant that the RSA representative admitted that there are potentially other ways to satisfy the final DIP investment conditions, other than to terminate the pilot pension plan.
****** I THINK IN THE WORLD OF BRINKSMANSHIP,THIS IS CALLED 'SOMEONE JUST BLINKED'*******
Chip
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[/blockquote]
 

PITbull

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Dec 29, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 2/23/2003 9:10:20 AM DELLDUDE wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 2/22/2003 9:21:01 PM chipmunn wrote:


Then US Airways attorney John Butler told the court that nobody feels comfortable terminating the pension of the group that, of all employees, has almost single handedly through their sacrifices, "saved" this company, thus far.
**** THIS MAKES ME FEEL JUST PEACHY ABOUT ALL THE LABOR GROUPS 'CONTRIBUTIONS 'SO FAR***AND YOU GUYS WHINE ABOUT AANIMOSITY BETWEEN THE LABOR GROUPS*********Therefore, the court and the company fully recognize the enormous pilot sacrifices made so this airline can survive.

Separately, it was considered significant that the RSA representative admitted that there are potentially other ways to satisfy the final DIP investment conditions, other than to terminate the pilot pension plan.
****** I THINK IN THE WORLD OF BRINKSMANSHIP,THIS IS CALLED 'SOMEONE JUST BLINKED'*******
Chip
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[/blockquote]

You go ALPA! They did "blink" and I am stunned! Y-E-S!
 
OP
C

chipmunn

Guest
The ALPA MEC is in session and are debating the issue. I am going to attend Monday's court hearing, discuss the issues with MEC members, and I will report any signficant news Monday night.

Chip
 

PITbull

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Hula,

This Co. is not liquidating. This "new" management and their INVESTOR have much, much to gain. Mega millions.

They WILL work out a deal with ALPA.

We are going to war and 5% pay cut is around the corner for all. There is no way anyone can give anymore CASH.

Management will probably work out a deal with the pilots that will sound something like this":

a) PILOTS take a LESS stake in the co. and give more to RSA.
B) Their wage "snap back" get extended further out.
c) ALPA forced to change their multiplier again.

That's my hypothetical.

I have a feeling that U lawyers know that the courts have sympathy for the pilots, and they would probably lose on that ruling.
 

Upsgnr

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Feb 22, 2003
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Reality Check - It's nothing personal, it's just the marketplace.

Other employee groups have been cut to the bone and have marketable skills.

Mechanics are skilled labor and can take their skills into many different areas - auto repair, independent aircraft repair, contractors etc. at comparable wages.

Reservationists and customer service have been cut to the bone - at the wages that USairways is paying them they have alternatives as well - receptionists, 911 operators, customer service.

Pilots on the other hand, most of whom love their jobs, have few alternatives in todays market to be pilots - there is a huge surplus of skilled pilots available, most of whom would love to get into the cockpit again.

There is just no alternative if the company is to survive but to go to the group that has the most to give, namely the pilots.

As an example take UAL and their "industry-leading" pilots contract. In todays airline industry UAL pilot saleries will probably take down UAL in the absence of givebacks. The UAL pilots know this, at one point the UAL share price dropped so low before bankruptcy that ALPA could have bought UAL and paid themselves whatever they wanted.

Of course this is a joke, you don't pay yourself whatever you want, not if you want to stay in business. There has to be a business case. The U.S. government knew that United's business case was a fairy-tale and under these circumstances refused the loan. There is a good chance that UAL will not survive as they still don't have the givebacks from their employees and the creditors want to get paid.
 

delldude

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[blockquote]
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On 2/23/2003 11:24:19 AM savyinvestor wrote:

Dell, By now you should know everything revolves around the pilots. Me,Me, Me, Me, Me,................. Savy
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[/blockquote]
unfortunatly i believe you may be right.key question is,what will they be willing to ante up now to save their precious retirement?
 

PITbull

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Nicely said Piney,

You sure are a "realist".

In my world, "realism" IS what WE humans permit to be; Which can change and evolve. It depends on whose got the "trump".
 

RowUnderDCA

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Oct 6, 2002
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I agree that DBRP's seem sooo twentieth century and not at all attractive to me. And I'm not that young, but I don't want to hitch my future to some corporation. Geez, I'm having second and third thoughts about having it hitched to the Bush Administration!

But you've got to sympathetic to the folks caught in a transition to a different kind of plan.

Do future pilots really want to continue this "all or nothing" dependence on the health of one corporation for their whole career? Can't ALPA help free their members from this trap? I'm no conservative... more like a hard-hearted liberal, but it just doesn't appeal to me.
 

PITbull

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I am a big proponent of the DPF. For 25 plus years of loyalty to the same co. should have a compensation for life. Takes much committment to stick with one company for your entire working career. There should be a reward for that.

Regarding 401Ks, Market is too risky for the average investor. To pick the right investment that will perform consistently is "luck of the draw". I don't believe that the employee should take more of the risk. Plus you have to have enough of an income to appropriate for a retirement in order to attempt to maintain the same standard of living. DPP are good for our economy and our society, as well. Folks who hit retirment age know the age they will retire vs. hoping that the market gives the right consistent return so you can retire. However, you may pick an age for retirement, and if the market happens to have a major slump...you ain't retiring! The youth who get educated and over educated can step into jobs, as the older employee retires. Minus the defined pension plan, the retiree who does not do well with their investments through time, can't retire.

If you allow corporations to move away from a DPF, they will most certainly do this. They love having the employee take on more of the medical and retirement costs, instead of them. The Execs who make the rules gets to "line" their own pockets with more of the profits that are made.

I don't have this philosophy that believes everything for the company, company, company, and forget the employee; just give them a wage. Don't want to give this a label, since I'm lining up behind you. No system goes unchecked. Unions create that balance so that the rich don't take it all.

That's why there are unions to create that "balance". Hopefully, the unions will not circum to the Corporate retorhic of the day to give this benefit up.


Like Dio said, sharing the risk...employee, employer and gov, could be a consideration. But, I am still not willing to move off the defined benefit, altogether.
.
 

PITbull

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Ups,

I'm all for a profit...more the better,the merrier. What I'm not for is an extremely profitable successful co. with senior execs in the corporation making thousands and millions of dollars, and their "rank and file" employees not being able to support themselves and their familes.

I hope that what has happened here at U is NOT the new "sign of the times" for all corporations. And that U's management style towards it's employees will not become "endemic".
 

Upsgnr

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Feb 22, 2003
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I'd say you'd do well not to bow down and worship the all mighty market god. It is what it is and in the long run it can yield an optimal result, but in the long-run we are all dead. What you have to do is protect yourself. A pilot earning $150,000 a year and investing 15% could have had a substantial nest egg over a 25 year career.

Depending on how you structure it, your 401K doesn't have to be invested in the stock market; it could be invested in bonds or T-bills. Over the past year high-grade corporate bonds having been yielding 7-8%, pretty respectable. Even in bad times there are opportunities. Also with a 401K and depending on how it is structured, it's yours.

These days a lot of investors would rather be creditors (bonds) rather than owners (stocks) particularly with the large number of banruptcies.

You know what gets lost in this debate is that workers and management are on the same team with the same goal, trying to make a product or service at a profit that pleases the customer while receiving compensation for their labor. Now in our society that compensation is determined in large part by the marketplace.

To listen to some of the posts, you'd think that a manager that tries to make a profitable enterprise is a criminal.
 

Upsgnr

Member
Feb 22, 2003
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I see your point. Unfortunately what we have in this country is capitalism for the working guy and gal, you go to work every day, bust your hump and pay your taxes, and then we have socialism for the rich, they pay no taxes and can screw up and walk away with millions.

It's not equitable and the only thing that's going to change it is more accountablity of the Boards of Directors to the shareholders. I've some optimism that this is going to change but only time will tell.