Pilot Thoughts, Ideas, Beliefs...

flyhigh

Veteran
Jan 4, 2003
657
0
...so, we see today Delta's credit rating was lowered, AGAIN. And again, the pilot issue was raised as the reason for the lowering of the rating. So what's the story on the street. I'm not really interested in the ALPA view. They're as bad as listening to Kerry & Bush duke it out....lots of talk, no substance. We do in fact have the highest paid pilots in the industry. Is that justified when we do not command a yield premium, let alone a RASM premium over most carriers, and a decreasing premium vs. LCC's??? I just get this sinking feeling that we're heading toward an abyss from which we will have too hard a time recovering.

I'm not bashing, just trying to understand how this great company will make it going forward...
 
Yes, pilots make a lot of cash. But, they also have the biggest responsibility out of anyone at the airline. They're responsible for all crew members and pax on their flight, plus the plane!

I don't know what you do for DL, but it's obvious you're not a pilot, so you must be non-union. If you're a f/a, you had your chance to organize and blew it. DL can take as much of your benefits as they feel, because you're non-union. They just tell you they're doing it and you can't do a thing about it.

I hope your pilots don't give a cent to DL. Now that DL announced they're planning on giving all of you new uniforms when they're flat broke. Guess who DL wiull take money and benefits from if the pilots don't give a cent? You guessed it, all non-union employees. Why you ask? No CONTRACT!
 
Pilots at DAL are only thinking of today and dam Manana. Delta's pilots should take an autimatic 12% pay cut and forget their 4% raise come May. It because of too much money for the pilots that DAL is selling the 5 777 due to be delivered this year and next. 777's are the future and Delta doesn't have enough, AA has 45 & UA has about 55-60 777's.

Wouldn't a DAL pilot make more on a 777 at reduced pay then a 767 at current pay? How much longer are 767-300 going to be that airplane to Europe. The first ones were delivered in 1988, in five years DAL should be flying something else across the pond or we really neeed more help. Pilots at DAL should all pool their resources and lease the airline a 777, a new "Spirit of Delta".
 
LiveInAHotel said:
Yes, pilots make a lot of cash. But, they also have the biggest responsibility out of anyone at the airline. They're responsible for all crew members and pax on their flight, plus the plane!
If the pilots are soooo important, why not just double their current salaries? What the heck, lets triple their pension benefits too.

Yes, pilots are important and they are paid very well by most standards for that. The hard realities is that the industry revenues (what customers are willing to pay) just don't support pilots' salaries at current level. I've seen all those graphs on pilot sites about how their salaries haven't kept up with inflation since the 1970s. Welcome to the rest of America, guys.
 
LiveInAHotel said:
Yes, pilots make a lot of cash. But, they also have the biggest responsibility out of anyone at the airline. They're responsible for all crew members and pax on their flight, plus the plane!

"I don't know what you do for DL, but it's obvious you're not a pilot, so you must be non-union." If you're a f/a, you had your chance to organize and blew it. DL can take as much of your benefits as they feel, because you're non-union. They just tell you they're doing it and you can't do a thing about it.

I hope your pilots don't give a cent to DL. Now that DL announced they're planning on giving all of you new uniforms when they're flat broke. Guess who DL wiull take money and benefits from if the pilots don't give a cent? You guessed it, all non-union employees. Why you ask? No CONTRACT!
I can agree with part of your post, but the rest lacks a basis in fact.

Where we agree is Delta's pilots deserve to be well paid. The skills and judgment that they develop over the years justifies a premium payscale. As someone who relies on pilots to keep me safe while I am at work, I want Delta to be able to select from the best when we are hiring and retain them. Remaining the best paid in the industry should help ensure a well qualified pilot group.

The rest of your post reflects your lack of in depth knowlege of Delta. For example, Your statement to flyhigh that "it's obvious you're not a pilot, so you must be non-union." Pilots are not the only organized group here at Delta. If you had said that it is "likely" that he is non union, you would have been correct. To state that he "MUST be non-union," is incorrect and makes it obvious that you are not very aware of who is what here at Delta.

You imply that the flight attendants could have avoided the benefit changes by organizing. This is not true. The company could have still made these changes even if the AFA could have come up with the 3997 or so additional votes necessary to elect the AFA. Again, voting yes two years ago would have not protected us from the changes that have been made.

APFA demonstrated the value of a contract when it voluntarily took pay and benefits cuts that took the AA flight attendant out of the 1 to 2 year leadership position that they held in the industry. The AA contractually protected flight attendants are now in the same position or worse than those of us non contract flight attendants at Delta. Any difference is not significant enough for you to justify throwing stones at us on this issue. In the end, APFA proved that there was no contract advantage.

The uniforms are going to cost three milion over a three year period according to a speech made by Jerry at a line chack airmen meeting. While it is an outflow, it is minimal compared to the Delta's other expenses. Also, Delta is not broke. We have over 2.5 billion dollars in cash. A more factual statement is we are losing money, not that we are "flat broke."

Hopefully, we will not be losing money for too much longer. The pilots are going to come to the table, and there will be concessions. At a recent line check airman meeting, Jerry said that it will be in the neighborhood of thirty percent if we are to avoid bankruptcy.

One way or another, the union employees and the non union employees at Delta are all going to share equally in the productivity gains necessary to return to profitability.

If you could see past the union/non union, contract/non contract lens through which you see the world, you might be able to base your analysis on facts rather than dogma.
 
I'm talking about proportional sacrifice here. The same percentage of everyone's salary. No one is disputing the "responsibilty" pilots have, but at times like these I think of a book called "Hard Landings" and the Eastern saga in Maimi with the fued between Charles Byran, the IAM local head, and Frank Borman. Byran wouldn't give concessions to Borman, the rest is well known history. Will Delta be history because of greedy pilots? I hope not.
 
JFK777 said:
Pilots at DAL are only thinking of today and dam Manana. Delta's pilots should take an autimatic 12% pay cut and forget their 4% raise come May. It because of too much money for the pilots that DAL is selling the 5 777 due to be delivered this year and next. 777's are the future and Delta doesn't have enough, AA has 45 & UA has about 55-60 777's.

Wouldn't a DAL pilot make more on a 777 at reduced pay then a 767 at current pay?
First of all, Delta is not loosing money on the 777 because of pilot costs. Spread over the roughly 270 seats on a 777, the costs of the pilots are minimally higher than the other major airlines. UAL and AA are loosing money on the 777 also, even with the lower pilot costs.

Second, you mention that the pilots should take a 12% pay cut and defer the next raise. I bet you if the company would agree to that, the Delta pilots would take that deal tomorrow. But, so far Delta management has not come off their position of a 30% pay cut.

Last, even though a Delta pilot would make more flying a 777, even with the 12% pay cut, than he/she would flying a 767 today, what guarantees are there that managment would use that pay cut to buy 777s? Or would they get the pay cut and still sell the 777s?
 
How can AA or UA loose money on 777 flights when they fly them in the highest yield markets? AA serves LHR only with 777, about 16 daily from 5 different us cities. AA also serves Tokyo with 777 from 4 cities with LAX coming in April 2004, a route Delta operated for 10 years and gave up. AA also uses 777's on their deep South America routes especially EZE with 2 daily flight mostly with 777's sometimes 763's. Argentina is a rich premuim class market for AA.

UA uses the 777 to LHR, Europe and other Pacific Rim destinations, especially Tokyo.

How can Delta have 777 operations so profitable with higher crew costs, a smaller fleet( only 8) and flights to LGW not LHR? Sorry Delta but their won't be a seat in the House of Lords for you like AA or UA have at LHR.
 
aislehopper said:
The rest of your post reflects your lack of in depth knowlege of Delta. For example, Your statement to flyhigh that "it's obvious you're not a pilot, so you must be non-union." Pilots are not the only organized group here at Delta. If you had said that it is "likely" that he is non union, you would have been correct. To state that he "MUST be non-union," is incorrect and makes it obvious that you are not very aware of who is what here at Delta.

You imply that the flight attendants could have avoided the benefit changes by organizing. This is not true. The company could have still made these changes even if the AFA could have come up with the 3997 or so additional votes necessary to elect the AFA. Again, voting yes two years ago would have not protected us from the changes that have been made.

APFA demonstrated the value of a contract when it voluntarily took pay and benefits cuts that took the AA flight attendant out of the 1 to 2 year leadership position that they held in the industry. The AA contractually protected flight attendants are now in the same position or worse than those of us non contract flight attendants at Delta. Any difference is not significant enough for you to justify throwing stones at us on this issue. In the end, APFA proved that there was no contract advantage.

The uniforms are going to cost three milion over a three year period according to a speech made by Jerry at a line chack airmen meeting. While it is an outflow, it is minimal compared to the Delta's other expenses. Also, Delta is not broke. We have over 2.5 billion dollars in cash. A more factual statement is we are losing money, not that we are "flat broke."

Hopefully, we will not be losing money for too much longer. The pilots are going to come to the table, and there will be concessions. At a recent line check airman meeting, Jerry said that it will be in the neighborhood of thirty percent if we are to avoid bankruptcy.

One way or another, the union employees and the non union employees at Delta are all going to share equally in the productivity gains necessary to return to profitability.

If you could see past the union/non union, contract/non contract lens through which you see the world, you might be able to base your analysis on facts rather than dogma.
The other union on the property was the dispatchers union, they were decertified a few years back. While you don't have to be a member of ALPA to be a pilot at Delta, it's a closed shop, you have to pay dues.

When a company starts to decline, no union will save you from cuts, those are inevitable, but a union ensures that the membership has some say in the process. When there is a cutback in the pilot workforce, a base closure for instance, pilots can "bump" into any spot their seniority will allow them to hold. No "closed bases" as happened with the closure of the SEA and PDX FA bases. With a contract the company cannot arbitrarily change wages and work rules. By directily involving the employees in the reduction, they get some say and some control of their destiny. No the company could not have made those arbitrary changes, the union would have to sign off on them and the membership would have to ratify them. Perhaps the changes would have ended up to be the same, or perhaps not. Since the FAs have no collective bargainer or contractual agreement, we will never know for sure.
 
Well, I'm not sure how I feel a day later. I wrote this post after reading that Moody's had downgraded our debt rating again. I'm getting pretty discouraged by what's happening at this company. We've seen it beofre, yet somehow in this industry, we choose to travel down a well beaten path that leads to nothing good.

I am particulary discouraged by the first response I rec'd (by LiveInAHotel). I'm no FA or any other front line group, but I can honestly say that this person typifies the arrogance of a pilot. I must ask, how well does that plane fly when it's not working? If I were a mechanic, I'd be pretty pissed at your comments. To believe that pilots are the most important piece is to show a deep misunderstanding of the business in which you work. No person or job is more important than another. Without a good finance organization, we'd all be jobless and you would have nothing to be responsible for. Without res agents and a technology department (to set up and operate the website) we wouldn't be selling many tickets. I think most group (mechanics more than most in my opinion) make a solid case to say they have as much responsibility as a pilot, and work much harder.

The point is not to start a debate on who is more important than whom, but to show that we have all give...except for one group. Delta has done, in my opinion, a great job of keeping our benefits above that of most others in the industry (I say this from experience) as well as industry in general. Yes, many of us have taken cuts, and that sucks no matter how you slice it, but are we simple moving closer to the realities of the world today or taking a real hit? Is it time now for pilots to change their pay rate???
 
flyhigh said:
this person typifies the arrogance of a pilot
No, I'm not a pilot, but I do fly. It's time for corporate greed to STOP and the DL pilots seem to agree!

Majority of you non-union folks at DL always b*tch and complain because the pilots will not give in. This is their right because they have a CONTRACT and the rest of you don't! If you hate when DL management just takes your pay, benefits and other things away when they please, then organize!
 
aislehopper said:
LiveInAHotel said:
Yes, pilots make a lot of cash. But, they also have the biggest responsibility out of anyone at the airline. They're responsible for all crew members and pax on their flight, plus the plane!

"I don't know what you do for DL, but it's obvious you're not a pilot, so you must be non-union." If you're a f/a, you had your chance to organize and blew it. DL can take as much of your benefits as they feel, because you're non-union. They just tell you they're doing it and you can't do a thing about it.

I hope your pilots don't give a cent to DL. Now that DL announced they're planning on giving all of you new uniforms when they're flat broke. Guess who DL wiull take money and benefits from if the pilots don't give a cent? You guessed it, all non-union employees. Why you ask? No CONTRACT!
I can agree with part of your post, but the rest lacks a basis in fact.

Where we agree is Delta's pilots deserve to be well paid. The skills and judgment that they develop over the years justifies a premium payscale. As someone who relies on pilots to keep me safe while I am at work, I want Delta to be able to select from the best when we are hiring and retain them. Remaining the best paid in the industry should help ensure a well qualified pilot group.

The rest of your post reflects your lack of in depth knowlege of Delta. For example, Your statement to flyhigh that "it's obvious you're not a pilot, so you must be non-union." Pilots are not the only organized group here at Delta. If you had said that it is "likely" that he is non union, you would have been correct. To state that he "MUST be non-union," is incorrect and makes it obvious that you are not very aware of who is what here at Delta.

You imply that the flight attendants could have avoided the benefit changes by organizing. This is not true. The company could have still made these changes even if the AFA could have come up with the 3997 or so additional votes necessary to elect the AFA. Again, voting yes two years ago would have not protected us from the changes that have been made.

APFA demonstrated the value of a contract when it voluntarily took pay and benefits cuts that took the AA flight attendant out of the 1 to 2 year leadership position that they held in the industry. The AA contractually protected flight attendants are now in the same position or worse than those of us non contract flight attendants at Delta. Any difference is not significant enough for you to justify throwing stones at us on this issue. In the end, APFA proved that there was no contract advantage.

The uniforms are going to cost three milion over a three year period according to a speech made by Jerry at a line chack airmen meeting. While it is an outflow, it is minimal compared to the Delta's other expenses. Also, Delta is not broke. We have over 2.5 billion dollars in cash. A more factual statement is we are losing money, not that we are "flat broke."

Hopefully, we will not be losing money for too much longer. The pilots are going to come to the table, and there will be concessions. At a recent line check airman meeting, Jerry said that it will be in the neighborhood of thirty percent if we are to avoid bankruptcy.

One way or another, the union employees and the non union employees at Delta are all going to share equally in the productivity gains necessary to return to profitability.

If you could see past the union/non union, contract/non contract lens through which you see the world, you might be able to base your analysis on facts rather than dogma.
Aislehopper;
Bottom line is that "hotel" is correct about much of what he's stated.

Pilots pay. Alpa offered 9% plus are willing forgo a raise.

DL says "no way, we want it all" (31%) ????

Wall street say's, "DL, TAKE alpa's offer, and move on from there" !!


DL/FA's. There is NO denying that short of BK-11, if DL starts shrinking the airline, you(and I FULLY realize that you DO NOT prefer a union), would be hurt "LESS", if your group was organized. I know it, and I know YOU know it !!!!!!


Regards,
NH/BB's
 
JFK777 said:
Pilots at DAL are only thinking of today and dam Manana. Delta's pilots should take an autimatic 12% pay cut and forget their 4% raise come May.
To be fair how about also applying that 12% cut to an agent that is making 20000. So instead of making 800 more they get to give up 2400 a year. It is really easy to sit back and say that someone other than yourself should take a pay cut.
 
Bear-

When has wall street said take what they offer? In a recently released interview of Grinstein, Morgan Stanley's analyst noted that he agrees with Jerry's stance and informs investors of the implications.

Live-

Nobody's b*tching & complaining about that as much as they are saying they've given, yet the group that most affects flight profitability refuses to take note of the fact they are dragging the company down. Few people, if any, feel any sympathy toward pilots and their need to take a cut. Many are more bothered by union (ALPA) comments that we have a Delta problem as if to say that pilots are not part of Delta and that the well-being of Delta is of no interest. It concerns me that the national organization is using Delta pilots as an example that they will stand tough no matter who it hurts including Delta pilots...