Pit Jobs
- Thread starter LavMan
- Start date
To the elected officials who feel they've been baited-and-switched; welcome to our world. This is EXACTLY what the issue has been with the employees. Sure, we're not happy about the givebacks, but I think we all realize some concessions were necesarry to keep the airline aloft, although mgmt. overreached. But the overarching issue is, YOU CAN'T TRUST THESE FOLKS!
'nuf said.
Bravo to teddy x and her wrecking crew for keeping the heat on! I'll bet Arlen knows who you are when he sees you!
'nuf said.
Bravo to teddy x and her wrecking crew for keeping the heat on! I'll bet Arlen knows who you are when he sees you!
delldude
Veteran
the company won't commit to a 'hard'number or types of jobs in any city for the same reason they are adamant about reducing the debt on the PIT terminal.they are stuck with this high debt from past decisions...sure they can walk away in january but i think with their insistance on reducing the debt structure they want PIT as a small mainline and large RJ.lets just hope this includes maintenece also.if they get their wishes,possibly down the road they can expand mainline from rj spoking.only time will tell.from their continued demand for debt restructuring,i see them in PIT,long term.
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
- 1,122
I read this article yesterday. I would really love to know why management always compares our wages to Jet Blue? How about comparing ours to Southwest for a change....lower fares...higher wages, and they even make a profit. Since Jet Blue has only been around for 2-3 years, it makes sense that their average pay for a
C/S or Fleet employee is $9 an hour. They get $9, and many of us with 20+ years get Expressed at $13....I would be willing to be they will make a hell of a lot more after 20 years with Jet Blue.
C/S or Fleet employee is $9 an hour. They get $9, and many of us with 20+ years get Expressed at $13....I would be willing to be they will make a hell of a lot more after 20 years with Jet Blue.
PITbull
Veteran
Bob,
I am confused by your thread. You are talking about STILL a cost structure out of WACK for U?
This cost structure is based on U's business plan (newly minted by Dave himself). We have downsized and decreased capacity by over 30%. TWO, I repeat TWO major gutting-contract concessions yeilding over $1 billion per year in cost savings to this management. OVER 20,000 jobs gone with folks on the property who are left trying to pick up the slack. Terminations of pensions, Continual violations of ALL contract agreements whereby stealing more cost savings from these agreements while they stack up in line for arbitration. ALPA has 227 grievances filed with this management....W-O-E!
The cuts are so deep that they have permeated into customer service, whereby the customer now has to pay extra for many of the services that were given in the past.
So, what cost savings are you looking to help U out to be more competitive?
My suggestion: OPERATE THE DAMN AIRLINE TO BE MORE EFFICIENT AND TRY PLEASING THE CUSTOMER FOR REPEAT BUSINESS!
Your turn!
I am confused by your thread. You are talking about STILL a cost structure out of WACK for U?
This cost structure is based on U's business plan (newly minted by Dave himself). We have downsized and decreased capacity by over 30%. TWO, I repeat TWO major gutting-contract concessions yeilding over $1 billion per year in cost savings to this management. OVER 20,000 jobs gone with folks on the property who are left trying to pick up the slack. Terminations of pensions, Continual violations of ALL contract agreements whereby stealing more cost savings from these agreements while they stack up in line for arbitration. ALPA has 227 grievances filed with this management....W-O-E!
The cuts are so deep that they have permeated into customer service, whereby the customer now has to pay extra for many of the services that were given in the past.
So, what cost savings are you looking to help U out to be more competitive?
My suggestion: OPERATE THE DAMN AIRLINE TO BE MORE EFFICIENT AND TRY PLEASING THE CUSTOMER FOR REPEAT BUSINESS!
Your turn!
Old PSA
Advanced
Piney,
The reason US has the employee difference is really quite simple. It's the hubs. They eat aircraft time which increases crew time. they require large numbers of ground employees to make them function. Southwest and Jetblue run point to point systems and have connection opportunities at various airports. However the connection does not drive the schedule. The utilitization of aircraft does. The more efficent aircraft utilitization is the more efficent crew utilitization is. Less ground staff is needed because the aircraft flow faster through the airports and so on. Also, there is a thing called SIPP (Standard Interline Practices and Procedures) that governs how the ticketing and such is handled. Southwest and Jetblue do not participate in interlining, they do their ticketing fastest and cheapest way possible. Simplicity saves money. The majors haven't yet figured that one out.
The reason US has the employee difference is really quite simple. It's the hubs. They eat aircraft time which increases crew time. they require large numbers of ground employees to make them function. Southwest and Jetblue run point to point systems and have connection opportunities at various airports. However the connection does not drive the schedule. The utilitization of aircraft does. The more efficent aircraft utilitization is the more efficent crew utilitization is. Less ground staff is needed because the aircraft flow faster through the airports and so on. Also, there is a thing called SIPP (Standard Interline Practices and Procedures) that governs how the ticketing and such is handled. Southwest and Jetblue do not participate in interlining, they do their ticketing fastest and cheapest way possible. Simplicity saves money. The majors haven't yet figured that one out.
Pineybob:
You asked "Also ask yourself if you would work under SWA's work rules?" My answer is a resounding yes. But they won't ask us to do that. For if we did, the charade of how he runs this airline would be out there for all to see. DAL is the only airline taking hold of the bull by competing with it. SONG. And it's working. Because of the high density 757's and scheduling of the jets he is within 15% of JetBlue's costs. Mullin said that, not me. And when the DAL pilot's give back (and they wll) Song may very well beat the casm of JetBlue. Again, Mullin said that, not me. And when DAL fully implements that piece of their corporate plan to the hub and spoke system they will dominate this industry. If Seigel asked this work force to work under the SWA contract in order to DIRECTLY COMPETE with them, I think we would. Let's have a war with JetBlue or SWA. But he won't ask. Because that isn't the plan. His plan isn't working. Either by his design or his incompetence. One or the other.
We aren't competing we are running. To the Carribean. And it will only stave off the others until they see there are dollars down there. Then they will come. And we will run again. Just like we did on the west coast. And in BWI. I could go on. But we are running out of room to hide. We thought what we gave would help this company compete. We thought we had a management that knew how to compete. What we got was a management who has either no brain or an ulterior motive. Only time will tell which it is. In the meantime, we can only wring our hands and wonder. This guy is either dishonest or stupid. My gut feeling is the former. We shall see.
mr
You asked "Also ask yourself if you would work under SWA's work rules?" My answer is a resounding yes. But they won't ask us to do that. For if we did, the charade of how he runs this airline would be out there for all to see. DAL is the only airline taking hold of the bull by competing with it. SONG. And it's working. Because of the high density 757's and scheduling of the jets he is within 15% of JetBlue's costs. Mullin said that, not me. And when the DAL pilot's give back (and they wll) Song may very well beat the casm of JetBlue. Again, Mullin said that, not me. And when DAL fully implements that piece of their corporate plan to the hub and spoke system they will dominate this industry. If Seigel asked this work force to work under the SWA contract in order to DIRECTLY COMPETE with them, I think we would. Let's have a war with JetBlue or SWA. But he won't ask. Because that isn't the plan. His plan isn't working. Either by his design or his incompetence. One or the other.
We aren't competing we are running. To the Carribean. And it will only stave off the others until they see there are dollars down there. Then they will come. And we will run again. Just like we did on the west coast. And in BWI. I could go on. But we are running out of room to hide. We thought what we gave would help this company compete. We thought we had a management that knew how to compete. What we got was a management who has either no brain or an ulterior motive. Only time will tell which it is. In the meantime, we can only wring our hands and wonder. This guy is either dishonest or stupid. My gut feeling is the former. We shall see.
mr
mrplanes,
Exactly, sir, and very well said.
PineyBob,
All the way back to the PlaneBusiness Days, I have challenged, begged and pleaded for the WN contract, work rules and all. I knew this would box mgmt into a corner, for even with WN costs, U would still be unprofitable. Who the he// would get the blame then? In the pre 9-11 days, WN and U routinely reported labor as 40% of their costs; WN made money -U didn't.
As far as work rules. Fleet and customer service agents were not under contract until 99. U routinely lost money in the decade prior to that. As management had the total initiative with regards to pay, bene's, furloughs, work rules, etc., who screwed the pooch? Management loves to play the 'we have overpaid employees, so it's not our fault' angle, but that's just to take the focus off their own ineptitude. You're a veteran of the corporate wars, and I know you've seen this before.
Post contract, we basically ratified the company policy guide, and flexibility, including cross-utilization, was negotiated into the CWA/IAM contracts.
Exactly, sir, and very well said.
PineyBob,
All the way back to the PlaneBusiness Days, I have challenged, begged and pleaded for the WN contract, work rules and all. I knew this would box mgmt into a corner, for even with WN costs, U would still be unprofitable. Who the he// would get the blame then? In the pre 9-11 days, WN and U routinely reported labor as 40% of their costs; WN made money -U didn't.
As far as work rules. Fleet and customer service agents were not under contract until 99. U routinely lost money in the decade prior to that. As management had the total initiative with regards to pay, bene's, furloughs, work rules, etc., who screwed the pooch? Management loves to play the 'we have overpaid employees, so it's not our fault' angle, but that's just to take the focus off their own ineptitude. You're a veteran of the corporate wars, and I know you've seen this before.
Post contract, we basically ratified the company policy guide, and flexibility, including cross-utilization, was negotiated into the CWA/IAM contracts.
Dont call me Shirley
Veteran
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
- 1,122
The SWA work rules and contracts would benefit all Fleet and C/S employees. We would make a much better wage with no Express Classification to deal with. Gone would be the RJ fiasco along with the lower wages they dictate. From what I have been told the SWA Contract would not benefit the Pilots and Mechs, because SWA's work rules would require a lot less of each due to productivity issues. I know that the SWA pilots are utilized for a lot more hours, and that they sub out some of their MTC work. I doubt that either group is willing to lose more of the workforce.
OldGuyinPA
Veteran
You see...SWA learned all they could from PSA in the early 70's. Read the book Poor Sailors Airline..The Story of PSA from start to finish. Hey maybe... we could send Just Call me Dave a copy. USAir didn't want to learn anything from PSA. They couldn't dismantle it fast enough. :rant:Maybe it's to late to do anything.....
Twicebaked
Veteran
- May 22, 2003
- 1,788
- 18
We used to be compared to Southwest until one day Dave thought..."oopps bad comparison. This makes me look like a bigger fool than I really am."PineyBob said:Airways does that for PR purposes. Look at one of the big cost differentials. Employees per mailine aircraft. US = 100/plane vs Jet Blue at 70/plane. So even if all of the labor rates were 10% less at US, US would still operate at a 20% cost premium.wings396 said:I read this article yesterday. I would really love to know why management always compares our wages to Jet Blue? How about comparing ours to Southwest for a change....lower fares...higher wages, and they even make a profit. Since Jet Blue has only been around for 2-3 years, it makes sense that their average pay for a
C/S or Fleet employee is $9 an hour. They get $9, and many of us with 20+ years get Expressed at $13....I would be willing to be they will make a hell of a lot more after 20 years with Jet Blue.
Not turn it around to the real world, and you have in one instance $9/hr (JB) vs $13/hr for US which is almost exactly 30% more in direct labor cost. Look at the Outsourcing cost vs in house cost for mtc. another 20 to 30% differential. And so it goes.
Now after all of that factor in the roughly 30% more employees earning more and it gives you an idea at least as to why it seems like you're being chased around the room by a mad man with an axe.
When you have a cost structure that is taht far out of whack it is immpossible to sustain a viable business in an industry that is mature and threatened by new discount carriers. Also ask yourself if you would work under SWA's work rules?
