Please fully explain System Protection, have questions?

Jul 18, 2008
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I have read article 42--Job Security and think I understand it but I hear from others including my shop stewards something different. I currently am on RIF from my AMT position and hold a spot in an OSM shop. Trying to get all my ducks in a row for the next RIF. I understand if they layoff a large number in Tulsa it will hit me once again and this time I will take my $12,500 and hopefully take an AMT spot somewhere in the system, until I may return to Tulsa.

My confusion as is others I talk to is regarding system protection. I currently have system protection with my 97 occupational date. I will use closing AFW as an example. Some say that if AFW closes the guys there can come to Tulsa and bump lower senior guys to another station.

Some say that is not the case as with article 42.2 LINE #1 which reads.

RIF FOR SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEES

A SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE CAN DISPLACE A NON-PROTECTED EMPLOYEE AT ANOTHER STATION. A SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE CANNOT DISPLACE ANOTHER SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE AT ANOTHER STATION.


So which is it? Am I reading something wrong? If they close AFW, as an example of course, can the 700 or so guys above me there bump me out of Tulsa?

This whole situation has got my nerves wrecked because this time if it does hit me again I will have to sell my home and move my family during a very stressful time.

This whole sitiuation sucks for everyone. I wish we all could just put in an honest days work and not have to worry about RIF's again, maybe someday........... <_<

Thanks.
 
I have read article 42--Job Security and think I understand it but I hear from others including my shop stewards something different. I currently am on RIF from my AMT position and hold a spot in an OSM shop. Trying to get all my ducks in a row for the next RIF. I understand if they layoff a large number in Tulsa it will hit me once again and this time I will take my $12,500 and hopefully take an AMT spot somewhere in the system, until I may return to Tulsa.

My confusion as is others I talk to is regarding system protection. I currently have system protection with my 97 occupational date. I will use closing AFW as an example. Some say that if AFW closes the guys there can come to Tulsa and bump lower senior guys to another station.

Some say that is not the case as with article 42.2 LINE #1 which reads.

RIF FOR SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEES

A SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE CAN DISPLACE A NON-PROTECTED EMPLOYEE AT ANOTHER STATION. A SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE CANNOT DISPLACE ANOTHER SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE AT ANOTHER STATION.


So which is it? Am I reading something wrong? If they close AFW, as an example of course, can the 700 or so guys above me there bump me out of Tulsa?

This whole situation has got my nerves wrecked because this time if it does hit me again I will have to sell my home and move my family during a very stressful time.

This whole sitiuation sucks for everyone. I wish we all could just put in an honest days work and not have to worry about RIF's again, maybe someday........... <_<

Thanks.

A System Protected employee.

1.) Can bump an employee, which is not System Protected.
2.) Cannot bump, another System Protected employee.
3.) Can displace, or bump a employee junior in the system, or can fill a vacancy.
4.) If you are protected, and haven't changed "status" you are eligible for the $12,500, minus
appropriate taxes.

If I were you, don't sell your house. I would commute. Sure it is tough on family- But with AA, you can never get ahead, by moving/selling/buying/selling and move again. This type of #### has been going on with AA, since I started in 1988. If you see no future, I would say get out. My guess, is people hitting the street, might not be back for "possibly" 3 years.

Best of luck, we have all been though the ringer with this outfit... :blink:
 
Gentlemen, "IF" something unprecedented were to happen and a large maintenance base were to close it will get very interesting. I`m "protected" with 18+ years at AA, 14 at AFW. I don`t recall anything in the contract that specifically addresses a rif of the magnitude of a base closing. The bump and roll would be chaotic, can you imagine. We can speculate all day long but in the end no of us know what will happen.
AAtulsamechanic, good luck to you. I truely hate seeing people torn from family. On my dock alone we stand to lose 15 guys in this rif. Most of them were just recalled about 8 months ago.
BTW, if any of you knew steve stephens he passed away on friday night. He worked in tulsa, afw and currently dfw. May he RIP.
 
Gentlemen, "IF" something unprecedented were to happen and a large maintenance base were to close it will get very interesting. I`m "protected" with 18+ years at AA, 14 at AFW. I don`t recall anything in the contract that specifically addresses a rif of the magnitude of a base closing. The bump and roll would be chaotic, can you imagine. We can speculate all day long but in the end no of us know what will happen.
AAtulsamechanic, good luck to you. I truely hate seeing people torn from family. On my dock alone we stand to lose 15 guys in this rif. Most of them were just recalled about 8 months ago.
BTW, if any of you knew steve stephens he passed away on friday night. He worked in tulsa, afw and currently dfw. May he RIP.


So Sorry to hear about Steve.

What if both AFW and MCI were to be closed? What if all employees were offered opening in Tulsa, and 7 coverage across the Tulsa base was implemented to handle to work load of the fleet.

Maybe between attrition, VBR, and those that wish not to move would make up the headcount reduction. Even DFWH could take on some of the work and make for more openings to be filled by displaced employees.
 
My confusion as is others I talk to is regarding system protection. I currently have system protection with my 97 occupational date. I will use closing AFW as an example. Some say that if AFW closes the guys there can come to Tulsa and bump lower senior guys to another station.

Some say that is not the case as with article 42.2 LINE #1 which reads.

RIF FOR SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEES

A SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE CAN DISPLACE A NON-PROTECTED EMPLOYEE AT ANOTHER STATION. A SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE CANNOT DISPLACE ANOTHER SYSTEM PROTECTED EMPLOYEE AT ANOTHER STATION.


So which is it? Am I reading something wrong? If they close AFW, as an example of course, can the 700 or so guys above me there bump me out of Tulsa?

First of all the TWU contract is deliberately confusing as to afford the company the greatest amount of flexibility while giving the TWU the ability to claim that you have a contract. Keep that in mind whenever you pick up the Bluebook.

My guess is yes. Layoffs are done by seniority so if they close a station those at the station that is being closed supposedly have the option to either accept a layoff or bump because even though they may be closing a particular station that has say 700 guys its the 700 guys on the bottom of the list, regardless of staion that are getting laid off. Things get complicated because of all the different classifications within the contract group. For instance lets say they end up laying off 300 OSMs but the bottom 300 guys are line mechanics-the OSMs cant go there -they can only go to Tulsa. You can see where this goes. But the rules change every time there is a layoff so you never know what will happen. Technically if you are system protected you can either accept a layoff at your station or take an open position in the system and they have to provide an open position or positions. You never know how they will interpret it. They may say that since nobody in MCI has system protection that everyone has to go to MCI and displace senior employees there-which would trigger a grievance followed by a lawsuit from the guys at MCI who would cite the fact that layoffs are done by seniority so how could a guy with less seniority from another station bump out a senior guy in MCI? It will no doubt be messy. Its always done differently and its always a mess for those involved. I wish you the best.

This whole situation has got my nerves wrecked because this time if it does hit me again I will have to sell my home and move my family during a very stressful time.

Dont let these things that are out of your control cause you so much grief-just try to figure out a plan to deal with it. Talk to some of the older guys that have been through it for some ideas.

$12500 won't go very far in most of the places you would likely have to go. Probably wouldnt even cover the loss you would likely take in this declining real estate market if you tried to sell your house. Why disrupt the whole family? You may have a lot of company and often a bunch of guys get together and split rent, work Double-single-double and go home for 4 days a week. People are always retiring, look at the top of the seniorityv list to estimate how many will be leaving over the next few years-thats how you would get back.

Another option would be to keep the house and try to rent it to someone who is bumping to Tulsa, accept the $12500 and use that and the rental money to help pay the rent for a place thats big enough for the family.

This whole sitiuation sucks for everyone. <_<

That is the nature of the industry, the only thing thats changed is the pay used to make it worth it.

I wish we all could just put in an honest days work and not have to worry about RIF's again, maybe someday...........

Well that will never happen. Even Al Blackman could be laid off if they shut down the company. Once again-out of our control. We were all duped years ago into believing that working for somebody else can provide financial security. The TWU even tries to tell us that working for less provides security, well it doesnt-the only way to attain finacial security is to make a lot more than you spend and use the extra money to make you money. This way if the supply is ever cut off you have enough in reserve to get you by until you find a new source. The bigger the reserve the more discriminating you can be as to the quality of the next source. So working for less will always make you less financially secure. Eventually you want enough in reserve that the reserve earns you enough so you dont have to work at all-ie-retire.
 
snip ...
The TWU even tries to tell us that working for less provides security
snip ...

You're right, Bob - they do say that.

They're rather careful, however, not to tell us exactly to whom that "security" is provided as it's the International that benefits from the increased employment, even at a lower pay rate as the dues paid per month/person doesn't change.

When looking at a senority list, note that damned near everyone save for some of the extremely new hires has some manner of "protection". Giving protection to all in effect levels the field as though no protection exists.

I'm sure I'm missing something here as to the different types of wondrous "protection" afforded us by our company-approved contract and if so, I apologize up front.

One more bit of info - the $12.5k and any other allowance being cited is not as it seems - anyone accepting this will take an immediate 44% (approx) hit to these amounts in withheld taxes. Sure, you'll probably get a good deal of it back after filing returns next year, but bear in mind that's not when you need the money the most. You need it now.

Just plan on getting half of this "generous" cash offering from the company if you're considering it.
 
First off the "blue book" is a ever living and changing book with the twu. Did they not give the company a one time relief from the system protection during the last riff ?
Also i believe once you decided to bump down into a lower classification you cannot bump back up so your only option is bumping another osm ? can anyone confirm or deny this?
 
First off the "blue book" is a ever living and changing book with the twu. Did they not give the company a one time relief from the system protection during the last riff ?
Also i believe once you decided to bump down into a lower classification you cannot bump back up so your only option is bumping another osm ? can anyone confirm or deny this?


I believe there are still pending grievances over the senioirty list and handling of the last RIF.

And I believe you are correct, if you elected to remain at your station and/or bump to OSM you have no rights to bump AMT's in the system regardless of your seniority.
 
I believe there are still pending grievances over the senioirty list and handling of the last RIF.

And I believe you are correct, if you elected to remain at your station and/or bump to OSM you have no rights to bump AMT's in the system regardless of your seniority.

Wrong, we bumped down but are still AMT's in an OSM shop. We still are on AMT pay scale. We did not bid an OSM position. We just lost our license premium but still are AMT's.
 
Can you bid on Mechanic positions? NO
If you are still AMT's then why not?
We can go to another station as amt and we can bid crew chief or inspector at our own station but I know your point is they can and will do what they want when it comes down to it
 
Can you bid on Mechanic positions? NO
If you are still AMT's then why not?

Yes we can bid AMT jobs at other stations. I have not because my home and family is in Tulsa and the cost of living here is dirt cheap, that is why I have been waiting it out until I get my license premium back when I get called back to the dock.....if it ever happens. I along with hundreds of others have been waiting for over 5 years.
 
This may.."go over" like a FART in CHURCH,..but..consider this,

I wasn't an AMT, but the theory was the same, when I was commuting.

IF a lower seniority AMT(only) was to(say) get riffed from AFW/DFW, I would look for a station that had a very LARGE amount of AA flights between....where I (might) go, and where my family/house were.

Meaning, if I got RIF'd from Texas, I'd go to NYC/MIA or ORD, before TUL,...simply because of the MANY DFW Non-stops back and forth.

And as someone else mentioned, put 40 hours in,..........in 3 days.

For example;

As of the jan/09 schedule,

DFW-LGA=15 flts.
DFW-EWR=6 flts.
DFW--JFK= 1 flt.

Thats.."22" daily non-stop flights to/from Tx. in an "area"(LGA/JFK/EWR) thats not even 20 miles in circumference, with a GREAT Subway/commuter Rail system !


DFW-ORD=16 flts.


DFW-MIA=10 flts.

Remember, as bad as AA/TWU(SAME CRAP)..SUCK,............your "AMT"/system protection/recall rights designations are worth something down the road !

Good luck !
 
there are also now 4 flights from DAL to ORD, plus tons of flights from DFW to LAX/SNA/BUR/ONT/SAN
 
AA Tulsa Mechanic' date='Jul 20 2008, 04:32 PM' post='628188']
Wrong, we bumped down but are still AMT's in an OSM shop. We still are on AMT pay scale. We did not bid an OSM position. We just lost our license premium but still are AMT's.


See if i understand what you are saying when you bumped down to osm all you lost was your license pay but kept on getting step raises for a amt ?