Southwest has around 4.3 mechanics per aircraft and USAirWays has around 12. Southwest has 355 a/c USAirWays has 279 a/c. Southwest is making money and USAirWays is losing money. U’s mechanics are not taking any more, and it appears neither are the other unions. So where oh where are all the savings going to come from? If all of management worked for free, it would not make a dent. So all you people out there that are refusing to budge one inch, what do you think will happen? Do you believe a united stand against more cuts will save the day? If so, how? Forgetting all your hatred and anger for one minute, answer these questions honestly and without the bitterness use rationality and reasoning. This could be your last stand against the evil ones, is it worth it? If so, how, why, do you benefit from a failed company? Even the retirees are concerned about this one. If you’re hoping for a last minute management team change, you’re shooting craps.
Reality Check
- Thread starter uza
- Start date
I don't believe any longer that you are a US Airways manager, based on the content of your post. Having said that, I'll answer as if you were.
WN has fewer mechs per aircraft in part because they have one type of aircraft, and in part because they outsource much of the work. The number of employees is a red herring.
Where will the savings come from? How about taking the suggestion that you allude to tangentially and make it real? Don't cut the wages; increase the productivity! The work rules can change without any contractual renegotiation. That would generate far more savings than the strawman you put up of not paying management anything.
WN has fewer mechs per aircraft in part because they have one type of aircraft, and in part because they outsource much of the work. The number of employees is a red herring.
Where will the savings come from? How about taking the suggestion that you allude to tangentially and make it real? Don't cut the wages; increase the productivity! The work rules can change without any contractual renegotiation. That would generate far more savings than the strawman you put up of not paying management anything.
First of all, UZA, you have been and are sounding very, very DESPARATE. If you are management, then that is very scarry and concerns me. Your desparation...that is. Sounds like maybe you have more to lose than anyone.
Also.....just WHO are the "evil" ones?????
Furthermore, your tact and diplomacy leave alot to be desired from a Managerial Position (if this is who you really are). There is a book called "How to Win Friends, and Influence People". Every heard of it???
I have read all of your Posts. They sound desparate and threatning. Also, very disrespectful of the Labor at USAirways. Which, just might indicate, why the Unions are very reluctant to pay heed to all of you and Listen.
If I were to constantly talk to my children and berate them at every corner they turned, treated them like Idiots and of no value I fear they would eventually close their ears to anything I had to say. Respect and Constistancy goes along WAY. <_<
Also.....just WHO are the "evil" ones?????
Furthermore, your tact and diplomacy leave alot to be desired from a Managerial Position (if this is who you really are). There is a book called "How to Win Friends, and Influence People". Every heard of it???
I have read all of your Posts. They sound desparate and threatning. Also, very disrespectful of the Labor at USAirways. Which, just might indicate, why the Unions are very reluctant to pay heed to all of you and Listen.
If I were to constantly talk to my children and berate them at every corner they turned, treated them like Idiots and of no value I fear they would eventually close their ears to anything I had to say. Respect and Constistancy goes along WAY. <_<
uza -
Do you have any comment on the 80-100 Million dollars in savings ideas that were genereated by the IAM? How about they stop outsourcing such things as maintaining the PIT bag belt and jetways - which was done cheaper when it was in house.
There are things that this management team could be doing besides seeking concessions from employees, or to minimize those concessions.
Do you have any comment on the 80-100 Million dollars in savings ideas that were genereated by the IAM? How about they stop outsourcing such things as maintaining the PIT bag belt and jetways - which was done cheaper when it was in house.
There are things that this management team could be doing besides seeking concessions from employees, or to minimize those concessions.
delldude
Veteran
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
Ok uza,
Here are some facts -
1) From Unisys R2A Transportation Management Consulting:
"Before Chapter 11, labor accounted for 43% of US Airways’ total operating expenses
(41% for the legacy carriers combined) and about 48% of the unit cost difference
between the domestic operations of US Airways and Southwest (44% for the legacy
carriers combined). (Compare Figures 1 and 18 in Scorecard, Volume 1, Issue 2.)
Southwest could have operated US Airways’ domestic flights for $3.2 billion less than
US Airways spent, including $1.5 billion less in labor costs."
Quote from here
When you include termination of the pilots' DB pension plan, the employees have pretty well covered their part of the cost difference with Southwest. What hasn't been adequately addressed is the $1.7 Billion difference in NON-LABOR costs - a management function.
2) Read thru the thread titled "U.s. Airline Future, In The Eye Of The Storm" (about page 6 of the threads) and pay particular attention to the AWST article titles "Big Six: Cutting Costs, on Their Way" (the second article posted in that thread). Several posts below that are the charts that accompanied this article. They clearly show that our labor cost has dropped by a larger percentage than any other network carrier, but that our NON-LABOR costs have continued to increase - effectively negating the concessions of labor. They also show that we are the only "big 6" carrier that has had NON-LABOR costs continue to rise. Again, this is management's responsibility.
We employees have done our part - we've upheld our end of the bargain. Our thanks have been oppressive policies handed down by a seemingly vindictive management, a management that won't even honor the contracts they signed. We've been waiting a year for this management team to uphold its part of the bargain - implement a plan to use the tools we have given it to turn this airline around. So far we've only heard two things.
"Everythings on the table" - meaning everything in the employees contracts is on the cutting block.
"We've got to work together in order to be successful" - meaning the employees have to give management anything and everything they want so that their [management's] pay, perks, and next job opportunities will remain intact.
When you're ready to talk facts, instead of the same old tired "A job here at the lowest wage is better than no job" mantra, we'll talk.
Jim
Here are some facts -
1) From Unisys R2A Transportation Management Consulting:
"Before Chapter 11, labor accounted for 43% of US Airways’ total operating expenses
(41% for the legacy carriers combined) and about 48% of the unit cost difference
between the domestic operations of US Airways and Southwest (44% for the legacy
carriers combined). (Compare Figures 1 and 18 in Scorecard, Volume 1, Issue 2.)
Southwest could have operated US Airways’ domestic flights for $3.2 billion less than
US Airways spent, including $1.5 billion less in labor costs."
Quote from here
When you include termination of the pilots' DB pension plan, the employees have pretty well covered their part of the cost difference with Southwest. What hasn't been adequately addressed is the $1.7 Billion difference in NON-LABOR costs - a management function.
2) Read thru the thread titled "U.s. Airline Future, In The Eye Of The Storm" (about page 6 of the threads) and pay particular attention to the AWST article titles "Big Six: Cutting Costs, on Their Way" (the second article posted in that thread). Several posts below that are the charts that accompanied this article. They clearly show that our labor cost has dropped by a larger percentage than any other network carrier, but that our NON-LABOR costs have continued to increase - effectively negating the concessions of labor. They also show that we are the only "big 6" carrier that has had NON-LABOR costs continue to rise. Again, this is management's responsibility.
We employees have done our part - we've upheld our end of the bargain. Our thanks have been oppressive policies handed down by a seemingly vindictive management, a management that won't even honor the contracts they signed. We've been waiting a year for this management team to uphold its part of the bargain - implement a plan to use the tools we have given it to turn this airline around. So far we've only heard two things.
"Everythings on the table" - meaning everything in the employees contracts is on the cutting block.
"We've got to work together in order to be successful" - meaning the employees have to give management anything and everything they want so that their [management's] pay, perks, and next job opportunities will remain intact.
When you're ready to talk facts, instead of the same old tired "A job here at the lowest wage is better than no job" mantra, we'll talk.
Jim
I am no fan of unions as most of you know, but in this case, I have to side with the employees. UZA you make SOME valid points, but here's what you're missing:uza said:
This management has not dealt in good faith with any employee group. They have broken covenants governed by existing contracts which they are legally bound to honor, and have gone out of their way to break the backs of labor.
Whenever things don't work out, they ignore the real problems and blame everything on labor and unions. They do not accept the responsibility for their own lack of action.
How do you expect a management to come back to the employees a THIRD time when they have already given twice, and the problems which existed then still exist? Here's a short list:
They keep talking about improving utilization of aircraft, improving scheduling and rolling PHL. These moves would result in SUBSTANTIAL savings with minimal impact on labor. Why has this not been done?
They continue to waste valuable money on fighting the outsourcing of Airbus overhauls to an obviously deficient vendor. Why doesn't management just belly up admit they don't legally have the right to break the contract, and then TRY to negotiate in good faith to bring the work back in house?
They keep talking about rationalizing the fare structure, yet it has not been done. I am driving to Boston tomorrow because I can't justify the amount of money they want for me to fly. I have spoken directly to senior management on this issue, and they have as much as admitted they can rationalize the fares but they are basically afraid to. They can't think outside the box--yes they will lose the gravy run fares (which more and more of us are refusing to pay by the way), but with RATIONAL fares they will notice as other airlines have, that AVERAGE fares will go up, therefore overall revenue will go up.
I do not see anyone in management taking the kind of paycuts or making the kind of sacrifices that are being asked of the workers in the field. Until management agrees to a 20-30% paycut and suspension of ALL bonuses, I don't see why labor should give one more cent.
There is a lot which can be done to make the situation better without tapping an already tapped out work force. No one is willing to go out on a limb and make some of these changes however.
I am sad to see what this is doing to the rank and file at Airways--these are truly the finest people in this industry, and despite the way they are being treated, for the most part, they continue to keep smiling and do their jobs in an exemplary manner. I offer them my support, understanding and undying appreciation.
Until management takes action on the above items, and realizes that they need to stop alienating the two groups they need MOST to survive and thrive (employees and loyal customers), there is no chance for the survival of this company. I truly fear that the end is at hand unless there is radical change at the top.
And please don't rant about how I am not an employee of the company and I have no right to chime in here--I spend as much if not more time flying in the system as some employees, and count them as my friends. I consider myself as having a vested interest in the outcome of this crisis, and want nothing more than to see the great people at this company survive and thrive again.
My heartfelt gratitude and appreciation goes out to you all.......
ClueByFour
Veteran
You will never get the likes of Uza, Hawk, or their compadres to answer to such points as BB and Art have posted.
These guys have tunnel vision that reminds me of the current Administration. Moreover, I'd be willing to wager good money that a "talking points" and "keep on message" memo floats around the executive suite daily at CCY.
The fact that US now has less labor expense than the grandaddy of the LCCs, in the mind of the current management team must be ignored. To address it would basically admit that management has done nothing to either improve the nonlabor costs of operation and/or has no clue how to do so.
This crew could not lead a horse to water. Where is deelmakur for a witty quote when we need him.....
These guys have tunnel vision that reminds me of the current Administration. Moreover, I'd be willing to wager good money that a "talking points" and "keep on message" memo floats around the executive suite daily at CCY.
The fact that US now has less labor expense than the grandaddy of the LCCs, in the mind of the current management team must be ignored. To address it would basically admit that management has done nothing to either improve the nonlabor costs of operation and/or has no clue how to do so.
This crew could not lead a horse to water. Where is deelmakur for a witty quote when we need him.....
The problem at US is DEBT, DEBT and MORE DEBT. Southwest has very little while US needs to have lower wages so it can service that debt. Also, unlike Southwest, US cannot float more stock because most investors see no future in it. Management sacrifice would be nice and symbolic, but it would be nothing but a drop from the bucket of debt. Additional employee sacrifice would help some but probably just postpone the inevitable. US is playing a waiting game, hoping these measures will keep them in business long enough for airfares and revenue to recover, or that UA will be liquidated. Good luck to all but keep sending out those resumees.
usfliboi
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 2,070
- 270
Art its not just US its all the lccs. We arent alone. The very thing this person points out, who ever it may be, is the very thing ive been asking for from pitbull and others to explain, and no one talks about it. We cant compare ourselves to anyone without doing it top to bttm, not just pay rates. The above is a prime example of why they have an cost advantage. Something has to give somewhere, but where? UZA makes a good point, however just like pit bull the message is lost in the rhetoric or in yet another case like pitbull, the person! Art the betrayal fom management to its employees goes back years and years. The bttom line is the people who are dedicated to this airline and who want to be here, ARE HERE! The majority want to stay here and will do what they have to do to make this airline work. The majority voice for either side isnt on this website. They are the men and women on the line who work hard and go home to their family, usually with out one complaint. Is it harder today sure. Less money ? You bet ! But most know were not alone . It either make it work here or start all over only to go through the cuts, the rumors, and the anti union/ management rhetoric again.
usliboi,
You're right--it ALL has to change. BUT the employees have ALREADY given, and much more than any other carrier. I am not disputing that more concessions MAY be necessary. I am merely saying that these other issues must be addressed before the company can come back to the employees with their hands out for more.
I realize management pay cuts will do little for the bottom line, but symbolically they will do wonders--EVERYONE must share the pain. The rank and file have given twice. The customers have given in the way of reduced service (schedules and inflight). Management has given nothing.
Are there others in the same boat?? Absolutely. But other CEO's and executive groups have given as well--and I haven't seen that here. The items I spoke of in the above post MUST be addressed before the employees are asked to listen to the concession talk again (excluding work rules which SHOULD be changed now in the name of increased efficiency.)
Give us the rolling hubs--the RATIONAL fares, and recognize the great employees for what they are--the BEST in the business.
You're right--it ALL has to change---now it's management's turn.
Remember I am no fan of organized labor, but what's fair is fair.
My best to you all.......
You're right--it ALL has to change. BUT the employees have ALREADY given, and much more than any other carrier. I am not disputing that more concessions MAY be necessary. I am merely saying that these other issues must be addressed before the company can come back to the employees with their hands out for more.
I realize management pay cuts will do little for the bottom line, but symbolically they will do wonders--EVERYONE must share the pain. The rank and file have given twice. The customers have given in the way of reduced service (schedules and inflight). Management has given nothing.
Are there others in the same boat?? Absolutely. But other CEO's and executive groups have given as well--and I haven't seen that here. The items I spoke of in the above post MUST be addressed before the employees are asked to listen to the concession talk again (excluding work rules which SHOULD be changed now in the name of increased efficiency.)
Give us the rolling hubs--the RATIONAL fares, and recognize the great employees for what they are--the BEST in the business.
You're right--it ALL has to change---now it's management's turn.
Remember I am no fan of organized labor, but what's fair is fair.
My best to you all.......
- Thread Starter
- #14
People are quick to say no more, but offer no solution other than say, I already gave twice and it’s my choice not to give again. Fine, it sure is. If you make that decision based on facts, reality, and not emotions, then it’s a logical assumption that you are moving on and leaving this company behind. But, if you believe that standing firm will change anything making it a favorable outcome, then you are deluding yourself in a fantasy.
Usfliboi is correct. For example, pitbull is quick to slam management with the legendary tirades of rage when confronted on these boards or on the phone but offers no reasonable solutions.
Many are saying they are preparing but yet they are still here, what are you waiting for? If the unions and management don’t come to terms it will be advantageous to leave now before the floodgate of job seekers are looking in you neighborhood.
You say you already gave twice, yes I know, but do you believe that makes a difference?
You say it’s this teams fault entirely, yes I heard you, so how does pointing figures change anything?
Unless Mr. Bronner has a big change of heart very soon, this team is staying and everyone will need to deal with that fact, it’s just reality.
You say you don’t like this team’s attitude and therefore you refuse to deal with them.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them.
Some say I am not management. Who cares, and when did I say I was or wasn’t?
Some don’t like my attitude. Some of your attitude is not virtuous, plus I don’t really care what you think, again, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t count, will not change the fate of this company.
If you want to take up bandwidth flaming me and if that makes you feel better, knock yourselves out, but that won’t solve a thing either.
Usfliboi is correct. For example, pitbull is quick to slam management with the legendary tirades of rage when confronted on these boards or on the phone but offers no reasonable solutions.
Many are saying they are preparing but yet they are still here, what are you waiting for? If the unions and management don’t come to terms it will be advantageous to leave now before the floodgate of job seekers are looking in you neighborhood.
You say you already gave twice, yes I know, but do you believe that makes a difference?
You say it’s this teams fault entirely, yes I heard you, so how does pointing figures change anything?
Unless Mr. Bronner has a big change of heart very soon, this team is staying and everyone will need to deal with that fact, it’s just reality.
You say you don’t like this team’s attitude and therefore you refuse to deal with them.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them.
Some say I am not management. Who cares, and when did I say I was or wasn’t?
Some don’t like my attitude. Some of your attitude is not virtuous, plus I don’t really care what you think, again, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t count, will not change the fate of this company.
If you want to take up bandwidth flaming me and if that makes you feel better, knock yourselves out, but that won’t solve a thing either.
A couple of days ago the moderator alluded to multiple screen names coming form the same IP address. I would be curious to hear about the results of the same check between uza and a "certain poster"
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