Remember this in 2005? Union leaders bad or good?
- Thread starter usfliboi
- Start date
flame bait, and if you didnt have a union, do you think your working conditions, pay and benefits are bad now.
I guess you forget the history, when in 1992 they raped the non-union workers.
Your hatred for unions is well documented, just like the thread you posted about new training, nothing but to insult and flame away.
I guess you forget the history, when in 1992 they raped the non-union workers.
Your hatred for unions is well documented, just like the thread you posted about new training, nothing but to insult and flame away.
OP
- Aug 20, 2002
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- Thread Starter
- #3
and dont forget...unions didnt and couldnt help when we were forced into BK..twice! I pay my union dues each month...The market dictates my pay not a union negotiated contract! One must ask themselves after numerous management folks... styles.... etc what do we have in common since 1989? Not management! Unions are great for somethings and not for others. They dont make a company money ...the employee does... Just interesting reading whether you agree or not.... Doug hasnt changed his management style since he has been here has he? We were doing real well until the latest union fight... Surely no one could argue with those facts? Buisness 101 my friends..seriously in the end thats what it all comes down too... Like it or not! Glad to hear you are happy with the major bucks you are earning 700....Glad your union could get you what you wanted!
Dont call me Shirley
Veteran
The article bemoans "union millstones" yet waxing rhapsodically about WN, the most highly unionized company in the industry.
Could it be a that management at the legacy carriers is part of the problem. Or maybe the writer did not bother doing much research?
Could it be a that management at the legacy carriers is part of the problem. Or maybe the writer did not bother doing much research?
OP
- Aug 20, 2002
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Unions didnt help in bankruptcy?
Wow you really dont know what happened. Go ask the DL FA's how they were able to negotiate and not have rules imposed, oh wait that is what happened.
Guess you never read the information the union put out, guess you have no idea of what section 1113 of the bankruptcy code means.
I was at CCY for the IAM M&R and we met every night after negotiations with Fleet and the AFA for updates on negotiations, see negotiations.
Wow you really dont know what happened. Go ask the DL FA's how they were able to negotiate and not have rules imposed, oh wait that is what happened.
Guess you never read the information the union put out, guess you have no idea of what section 1113 of the bankruptcy code means.
I was at CCY for the IAM M&R and we met every night after negotiations with Fleet and the AFA for updates on negotiations, see negotiations.
Dont call me Shirley
Veteran
While all work groups have been hit hard, the agent group have been hit hard, for longer. than groups that were unionized all along. Which group was the first to lose defined benefit retirement?
While the customer service and ramp folks have well founded grievances with how they are represented by their unions, they would have been stchupted far worse without them. IMHO.
It saddens me that union membership is at an all time low and that public perception of organized labor is low as well. Too few Americans realize that so many of the things that are taken for granted now were won by organized labor -- often by people who gave the lives -- a hundred years ago.
While the customer service and ramp folks have well founded grievances with how they are represented by their unions, they would have been stchupted far worse without them. IMHO.
It saddens me that union membership is at an all time low and that public perception of organized labor is low as well. Too few Americans realize that so many of the things that are taken for granted now were won by organized labor -- often by people who gave the lives -- a hundred years ago.
No, obviously someone really junior.......wanting something that he/she hasn't yet paid their dues for in time or experience.......really nothing more to it than that.
Someone hoping to fan the labor issue flame (just like the company wants) thinking they will somehow how benefit. Motivated by not knowing any better, lack of experience, or most probably ignorance.
Either way this individual is willing to sell out their co-workers, and assist the company in a witch hunt, all while being played for a fool at same time.
You know a real stand up person. Someone only a weak and divisive CEO could love, until of course you are no longer useful. Actually that represents quite a few on this board. Sad.
History also proves that as well.
yoyodyne
Veteran
OP
- Aug 20, 2002
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- Thread Starter
- #10
Heritage Foundation Study
Unions function as labor cartels. A labor cartel restricts the number of workers in a company or industry to drive up the remaining workers wages….. Companies pass on those higher wages to consumers through higher prices, and often they also earn lower profits. Economic research finds that unions benefit their members but hurt consumers generally, and especially workers who are denied job opportunities.
The average union member earns more than the average non-union worker. However, that does not mean that expanding union membership will raise wages: Few workers who join a union today get a pay raise. ….The economy has become more competitive over the past generation. Companies have less power to pass price increases on to consumers without going out of business. Consequently, unions do not negotiate higher wages for many newly organized workers. These days, unions win higher wages for employees only at companies with competitive advantages that allow them to pay higher wages, such as successful research and development (R&D
projects or capital investments.Unions effectively tax these investments by negotiating higher wages for their members, thus lowering profits. Unionized companies respond to this union tax by reducing investment. Less investment makes unionized companies less competitive.
Economists consistently find that unions decrease the number of jobs available in the economy. The vast majority of manufacturing jobs lost over the past three decades have been among union membersnon-union manufacturing employment has risen. Research also shows that widespread unionization delays recovery from economic downturns.
Some unions win higher wages for their members, though many do not. But with these higher wages, unions bring less investment, fewer jobs, higher prices, and smaller 401(k) plans for everyone else.
Economic theory consequently suggests that unions raise the wages of their members at the cost of lower profits and fewer jobs, that lower profits cause businesses to invest less, and that unions have a smaller effect in competitive markets (where a union cannot obtain a monopoly).
…..union contracts compress wages: They suppress the wages of more productive workers and raise the wages of the less competent. Unions redistribute wealth between workers. Everyone gets the same seniority-based raise regardless of how much or little he contributes, and this reduces wage inequality in unionized companies… But this increased equality comes at a cost to employers. Often, the best workers will not work under union contracts that put a cap on their wages, so union firms have difficulty attracting and retaining top employees.
Studies typically find that unionized companies earn profits between 10 percent and 15 percent lower than those of comparable non-union firms.
Much more can be read in this study. If you truly want to know the costs, ALL THE COSTS, that are associated with unions read the article. It talks about how unions have cost GM and the US.
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Final union contracts typically give workers group identities instead of treating them as individuals. Unions do not have the resources to monitor each workers performance and tailor the contract accordingly. Even if they could, they would not want to do so. Unions want employees to view the unionnot their individual achievementsas the source of their economic gains. As a result, union contracts typically base pay and promotions on seniority or detailed union job classifications. Unions rarely allow employers to base pay on individual performance or promote workers on the basis of individual ability.
I have paid union dues 25 years ......I have every right to have opinion...agree with me or not.... I am a college graduate and majored in buisness.... No where in Buisness 101 on how to make money does unions play a role...... Hard working employees yes...Union mgt...NO! Do you see unions organizing at companies where there are no profits? Why is that? Unions organize where they see dollar signs....
JAMAKE1
Veteran
Wow you really dont know what happened. Go ask the DL FA's how they were able to negotiate and not have rules imposed, oh wait that is what happened.
I guess it was not as bad as you want it to be since the DL FA's voted down union representation again. Or did you forget about that?
I guess it was not as bad as you want it to be since the DL FA's voted down union representation again. Or did you forget about that?
DL isnt filing bankruptcy anytime soon, compare the PMNW employees to PMDL and the NW still under their cba until the NMB figures it all out, still have better pay, benefits and working conditions than PMDL FAs.
And DL has traditionally been non-union, cant compare them not voting in the AFA to what happened in Chapter 11.
Go ask the non-union fleet and csa at US what happened to them in 92 and why the voted in a union at the next opportunity.
And DL has traditionally been non-union, cant compare them not voting in the AFA to what happened in Chapter 11.
Go ask the non-union fleet and csa at US what happened to them in 92 and why the voted in a union at the next opportunity.
OP
- Aug 20, 2002
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- Thread Starter
- #15
I see you havent changed 700... This article said nothing about unions being for profit...At either rate I am happy that you are happy !
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