Rick Mullings fear versus APA Pilots open and honest communications

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Why do the Pilots always provide detailed and professional communications, while the TWU tries to manipulate everyone's opinions using Rick Mullings fear propaganda in self made videos and media interviews? Mullings has his own agenda and uses his appointed position to advance that agenda. Is the Mullings agenda the same as your agenda?

Based on the below review from the APA, anyone that tells you they already know the outcome of AMR Bankruptcy proceedings is either a liar or and ignorant fool. The laws are still evolving and no two cases are ever the same.

The question is "which path do you feel is best for your profession, and which path leads to further destruction of your profession"? Because anyone that tells you they know the outcome before the law is fully engaged is telling you a lie!

Do you wish to continue the fight with AA management and make a new ruling of law?
Or capitulate before further ruling of law is made and leave that battle to someone else?

That is the only question or direction that is left to answer.

One direction provides for potential gains while still facing more risk.
The other direction, assures years of more concessions, but very little risk.

Would be an easier decision if all three unions would share their resources for the same fight, instead of one (TWU) cowering in fear while the other two (APA, APFA) take membership controlled steps towards a decision, while open and honestly communicating with the membership.

From the APA Pilots


A Review of Several Airline 1113 Cases


Based on membership feedback, there appears to be many misconceptions regarding what a “no” vote would mean when faced with a pending 1113 ruling on our contract. Specifically, members have pointed to the Frontier, Hawaiian, UAL and NWA bankruptcies to espouse various “opinions” as to what could or will happen at AMR. Again, we will reiterate that each bankruptcy is unique, with its own set of facts and circumstances. It’s also important to recognize that bankruptcy law is constantly evolving. It is important that we clear the air on these issues and get the facts straight.

In the Frontier bankruptcy case, the question before the court during that trial was which one of management’s two 1113 proposals would be considered by the court for contract rejection. While the bankruptcy trial was in progress, Frontier management contended that the court should look to the modified term sheet that had evolved after the trial had begun — rather than its original pre-trial term sheet — for the purpose of figuring out whether management had met the standards for rejection. Because the parties had made significant progress in negotiations during the trial, the modified term sheet was much more reasonable from the workers’ perspective than the original term sheet was. This required that management would have to carry the burden of convincing the court it was entitled to reject the contract based on the original term sheet. The bankruptcy court ruled in management’s favor and rejected the Teamsters’ collective bargaining agreement. The Teamsters appealed and the bankruptcy court’s decision was reversed by the district court, which stated that the corporation must prove that it is entitled to reject its CBA based on its pretrial proposals. Because the bankruptcy court hadn’t analyzed the standards for rejection based on those pretrial proposals, the district court sent the case back to the bankruptcy court to apply the Section 1113 standards to those proposals. In short, the court ruled in favor of the Teamsters, and required the bankruptcy court to issue a second decision before the airline could reject the contract. During these proceedings and the appeal process, negotiations between the parties continued. Both parties were eventually able to reach an agreement before the bankruptcy or appeals courts issued a second decision on abrogation. In this particular case, the Frontier Teamsters’ experience has little applicability for us in a post-abrogation scenario, because, simply put, their contract was never abrogated.

In the case of the Hawaiian pilots’ bankruptcy, management had been removed and a trustee appointed to manage the airline. That case was particularly unusual in that several people associated with the bankruptcy were convicted on federal fraud charges. After nearly a year of bargaining, the pilots voted down a tentative agreement that had been negotiated by their leadership. Both parties then asked the judge to stay the ruling and give them one last chance to reach an agreement. The judge agreed and granted them more time to reach a consensual agreement and avoid abrogation. (It is important to remember that at this point, the court had not ruled on the 1113 and both parties were facing the same type of deadline that we faced in June when AMR and the judge agreed to give the parties an additional week to further refine AMR’s offer.) Both parties at Hawaiian resumed negotiations and reached a consensual agreement that was eventually ratified by the membership. There was no 1113 ruling and no contract abrogation, as some have alleged.

It is also critical to know that in our case, Judge Sean Lane has already extended the deadline for his decision once, and he has stated in multiple conversations with APA and AMR lawyers that he will not give any additional extensions. Challenge & Response speculation notwithstanding, the judge has made it indisputably clear that he will rule on Aug. 15 and that there will be no further extensions.

United’s bankruptcy has a very complicated procedural history that lends little clarity regarding what the world would look like for us in a post-abrogation scenario. Over the course of the airline’s very lengthy bankruptcy, United management filed two separate 1113 motions spread out over a three-year period. These motions also included a request for emergency relief in the form of pay cuts that were subsequently granted by the court. During the timeframe of the bankruptcy, the employees (IAM mechanics included) reached consensual agreements that were subsequently ratified by the rank-and-file. Thus the court did not make a decision regarding abrogation and United tells us nothing about a post-abrogation environment.

The Northwest flight attendants were the lone outlier in the bankruptcy process, in that after a convoluted set of negotiations and failed tentative agreements, their contract was eventually rejected by the court. The judge presiding over the case uncharacteristically chose to put conditions on the abrogation by stating that the terms that had been negotiated since management’s original 1113 filing would constitute the terms under which the flight attendants would work until they negotiated a new agreement, even though the flight attendants had voted down these terms. Both parties were sent back to the negotiating table, and the union leadership reached a second follow-on TA with management, but the flight attendants voted this TA down as well. After the second attempt at a tentative agreement ratification failed, the flight attendants gave Northwest management notice that they intended to strike. Initially the bankruptcy court ruled that the flight attendants were free to strike, but upon appeal by management, the district court reversed the bankruptcy court’s decision and enjoined the flight attendants from striking in response to the contract rejection. At this time the district court also ruled that Northwest management did not have to implement the more generous terms of the July 17 TA and was free to implement the more onerous March 1 TA, which management did. Concurrent with this process, the Second Circuit affirmed the district court and held that there was no legal right to strike in response to contract rejection and that a union loses its legal right to an unsecured claim if the contract is abrogated. While the issue had not been raised on appeal, the Court questioned where the bankruptcy judge thought he had the authority to attach conditions to the Section 1113 order. Later, the flight attendants pursued a claim for $1.2 billion resulting from the abrogation of their CBA in the bankruptcy court. Relying on the Second Circuit decision, the bankruptcy court rejected that claim, saying that the only way the flight attendants could have a claim would be if the debtor agreed to give them one — they were not entitled to one as a legal right based on the abrogation. After having been trounced on appeal and in the subsequent claims process, the flight attendants eventually ratified an agreement that gave management essentially all the concessions they had previously sought ($195 million per year, including many work rule concessions). That agreement also included a much smaller unsecured claim of $182 million, instead of the $1.2 billion that was denied by the court.

It is important to know that Judge Lane has repeatedly said in open court that, unlike the bankruptcy judge in Northwest, if he decides that American Airlines can abrogate our CBA, he does not believe he has the authority to and, therefore, would not put any conditions on the terms that management can put into place after the abrogation. Our lawyers have told us that management could, at worst, impose any term they wanted if our contract is abrogated, and, at best, impose the terms of the April term sheet. Even in that best-case scenario, though, American Airlines management has made it clear that they won’t impose all the terms of the April term sheet, because they had made some contingent on a consensual agreement. That is, if our CBA gets abrogated, American won’t give us pay raises, a 13.5 percent contribution to our 401(k)s, sequence protection, parts of the long-term disability benefit, or profit-sharing. And, of course, we also wouldn’t get our claim for equity in the reorganized New American.

Some pilots have speculated that the bankruptcy court’s decision in Northwest would require American to impose only the terms of the June 20 “Last, Best Offer” (LBO) if the court orders rejection. Judge Lane has repeatedly stated on the record that he believes he does not have the authority to approve specific terms as part of his rejection order. American Airlines management has asked for permission to implement the terms of their April 19 proposal — the last proposal they made before the trial began on the 1113 motion. The unions and the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee all argued that Judge Lane does not have the authority to “bless” any particular terms. Judge Lane agreed in open court, stating several times that he thinks that Section 1113 does not give him authority to “bless” any particular terms.

Therefore, Judge Lane’s decision will likely grant or deny American’s request to reject our CBA without telling management how they can change the current wages and working conditions on the property. In other words, if Judge Lane orders the rejection of our CBA, he is unlikely to give American Airlines management any instructions on what to do next.

In summary, we have only one group of airline employees that opted for abrogation rather than negotiate an agreement prior to having their contracts terminated. The Northwest flight attendants got a much smaller claim than they had sought, based on the route that they chose. They also left behind some very onerous legal precedents that we will have to navigate in the event we find ourselves in the same situation. In the end, this appeal ruling questioned whether or not the bankruptcy court actually had the power to authorize particular conditions or terms in an abrogation scenario. To date, in “legal speak,” this remains unfinished law and there has been no appeal that would lend further clarity to this issue. However, in our case, Judge Lane has repeatedly stated for the record in open court that all he can do is either authorize the rejection of our contract, or deny AA’s motion to reject it. What he cannot do is dictate the terms or conditions that American can impose following the rejection of the contract, as some would like to think.
 
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Most of the battles have been fought and lost. If you read the what happened in these 4 cases, in chronological order, you will notice that there were less and less options available to each group as the cases progressed from each other. This write up only seems to strenghten the argument that a consensual deal is better than taking a chance on abrogation. You do not make any arguments as to what should be argued in court that hasn't already been tried elsewhere...
 
Most of the battles have been fought and lost. If you read the what happened in these 4 cases, in chronological order, you will notice that there were less and less options available to each group as the cases progressed from each other. This write up only seems to strenghten the argument that a consensual deal is better than taking a chance on abrogation. You do not make any arguments as to what should be argued in court that hasn't already been tried elsewhere...

Like I said, isn't detailed information better than fear mongering Mullings?

Adults, at least most are capable of reading the facts and making up their own minds.
 
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Like I said, isn't detailed information better than fear mongering Mullings?

Adults, at least most are capable of reading the facts and making up their own minds.
So when the Sharon Levine puts out almost the same type of info it is "fear" and "propaganda". Now you hear the same recommendation from the APA almost a month later and it is "detailed information". You are a riot Dave!
 
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So when the Sharon Levine puts out almost the same type of info it is "fear" and "propaganda". Now you hear the same recommendation from the APA almost a month later and it is "detailed information". You are a riot Dave!

Big difference in the two communications.

And I was referencing Mullings in particular not Levine.
 
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So when the Sharon Levine puts out almost the same type of info it is "fear" and "propaganda". Now you hear the same recommendation from the APA almost a month later and it is "detailed information". You are a riot Dave!

Well of course the Pilots offer is Vastly different than what Mechanics were offered, you don't want to take just anything for fear of abrogation, if we get offered something "Reasonable"I'm sure we will take it.
United had their contract abrogated but got a concensual agreement 5 months later so abrogation isn't a big deal.
 
Big difference in the two communications.

And I was referencing Mullings in particular not Levine.

Been hearing the same things from the TWU. Months have passed with everyone saying how the Pilots and F/A's are not cowering...Well, they are now giving out the same information the TWU and all of a sudden sanity has returned. I hope our guys bring something back and don't continue stonewalling and saying we're better off with abrogation so we can keep negotiating.

Yeah! Negotiating from an even lower level. That makes sense.
 
Been hearing the same things from the TWU. Months have passed with everyone saying how the Pilots and F/A's are not cowering...Well, they are now giving out the same information the TWU and all of a sudden sanity has returned. I hope our guys bring something back and don't continue stonewalling and saying we're better off with abrogation so we can keep negotiating.

Yeah! Negotiating from an even lower level. That makes sense.

If they get something worth bringing back I'm sure they will but no point in bringing back something that isn't significantly better than what we already turned down so we can turn it down again, no big hurry we have time.
Also just because we go to abrogation that doesn't mean we won't continue from where we left off. Don't panic. ;-)
 
Well of course the Pilots offer is Vastly different than what Mechanics were offered, you don't want to take just anything for fear of abrogation, if we get offered something "Reasonable"I'm sure we will take it.
United had their contract abrogated but got a concensual agreement 5 months later so abrogation isn't a big deal.
"Vastly"? They were not faced with huge outsourcing of pilot jobs in their term sheet. We are up against massive outsourcing of jobs. The APA got the involuntary reduction dropped in exchange for a new pay scale for flying jets from 76 seats on up. Sounds like a new lower tier pay scale to do the same type of work currently done by APA pilots, kind of like OSM/SRP/SMAs huh?

So what's reasonable?

Abrogation "no big deal"? Maybe, maybe not. Reading what the APA has stated and what Ms. Levine already said a month ago, that Judge Lane will abrogate and not impose terms. Levine and the APA agree that AA can impose their original ask, "Even in that best-case scenario, though, American Airlines management has made it clear that they won’t impose all the terms of the April term sheet, because they had made some contingent on a consensual agreement. That is, if our CBA gets abrogated, American won’t give us pay raises, a 13.5 percent contribution to our 401(k)s, sequence protection, parts of the long-term disability benefit, or profit-sharing. And, of course, we also wouldn’t get our claim for equity in the reorganized New American."


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"Vastly"? They were not faced with huge outsourcing of pilot jobs in their term sheet. We are up against massive outsourcing of jobs. The APA got the involuntary reduction dropped in exchange for a new pay scale for flying jets from 76 seats on up. Sounds like a new lower tier pay scale to do the same type of work currently done by APA pilots, kind of like OSM/SRP/SMAs huh?

So what's reasonable?

Abrogation "no big deal"? Maybe, maybe not. Reading what the APA has stated and what Ms. Levine already said a month ago, that Judge Lane will abrogate and not impose terms. Levine and the APA agree that AA can impose their original ask, "Even in that best-case scenario, though, American Airlines management has made it clear that they won’t impose all the terms of the April term sheet, because they had made some contingent on a consensual agreement. That is, if our CBA gets abrogated, American won’t give us pay raises, a 13.5 percent contribution to our 401(k)s, sequence protection, parts of the long-term disability benefit, or profit-sharing. And, of course, we also wouldn’t get our claim for equity in the reorganized New American."


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From everything I hear the next offer from the company to us will be substantaily better than the last I guess you will still be saying we should have voted yes for the last one.
 
From everything I hear the next offer from the company to us will be substantaily better than the last I guess you will still be saying we should have voted yes for the last one.
You are correct. I still say you should have voted yes. Why? Because the "substantially" better offer would have come because the APA deal activated the "me too" clause. The groups that voted yes have already held sessions to get the 3% value in their agreements.

Are we getting a better offer? Probably. Was it because we voted no? No. The vote no coalition did not do anything. The groups that voted yes are getting the same value without the drama. But if it makes you feel like a bad ass then look in the mirror a keep flexing those guns.
 
"Vastly"? They were not faced with huge outsourcing of pilot jobs in their term sheet. We are up against massive outsourcing of jobs. The APA got the involuntary reduction dropped in exchange for a new pay scale for flying jets from 76 seats on up. Sounds like a new lower tier pay scale to do the same type of work currently done by APA pilots, kind of like OSM/SRP/SMAs huh?

So what's reasonable?

Abrogation "no big deal"? Maybe, maybe not. Reading what the APA has stated and what Ms. Levine already said a month ago, that Judge Lane will abrogate and not impose terms. Levine and the APA agree that AA can impose their original ask, "Even in that best-case scenario, though, American Airlines management has made it clear that they won’t impose all the terms of the April term sheet, because they had made some contingent on a consensual agreement. That is, if our CBA gets abrogated, American won’t give us pay raises, a 13.5 percent contribution to our 401(k)s, sequence protection, parts of the long-term disability benefit, or profit-sharing. And, of course, we also wouldn’t get our claim for equity in the reorganized New American."
Overspeed I just don't buy off on the idea that if we sign a contract less jobs will be lost, I think it's a scam to get us to agree to drastic concessions, I think the number that the company said the contract would save was the real number all along & the first number the company gave was Inflated to be used as a bargaining chip, We all know over time their are going to continue to be layoffs because new planes don't need a Heavy C check for at least 5 years & AA wants to extend that time, there is a reason why AA refuses to agree to ANY job protection clause because they know that new planes don't need much Maintenance, some things we just have to accept that there is nothing we can do about it, but let's not agree to be way below the other Airlines buying that it will save jobs ..... It's a scam I know it in my heart.
 
You are correct. I still say you should have voted yes. Why? Because the "substantially" better offer would have come because the APA deal activated the "me too" clause. The groups that voted yes have already held sessions to get the 3% value in their agreements.

Are we getting a better offer? Probably. Was it because we voted no? No. The vote no coalition did not do anything. The groups that voted yes are getting the same value without the drama. But if it makes you feel like a bad ass then look in the mirror a keep flexing those guns.

You should check those Me too clauses they are a scam too not every group is getting treated equal, not all even got the full amount that the pilots did & non of them got offered any of the other stuff like the 13% equity in the company etc.
I think Me too clauses are always a scam .... there never actually equal to what your Me tooing.
I am so glad we voted NO & I'm poised to do it again if necessary, I'm getting the feeling that you have very low seniority & I understand your concern but I just can't vote yes until the offer get's much closer to what United.Continental & Delta/Northwest have.

Overspeed I don't expect AA to impose terms or lay anybody off immediately after Abrogation, not saying they will wait forever but they do want a 6 year contract & they know it's not in their best interest to layoff the low seniority yes voters until after they get a yes vote, look what happened at United.
 
You are correct. I still say you should have voted yes. Why? Because the "substantially" better offer would have come because the APA deal activated the "me too" clause. The groups that voted yes have already held sessions to get the 3% value in their agreements.

Are we getting a better offer? Probably. Was it because we voted no? No. The vote no coalition did not do anything. The groups that voted yes are getting the same value without the drama. But if it makes you feel like a bad ass then look in the mirror a keep flexing those guns.

So the pilots activated the me to clause go figure. I guess what you are saying is that you have no faith in the twu to neg a better deal,so we have to ride the coatails of the pilots(Can you say craft union) and the me to clause. I can't blame you for not having any faith in the twu because none of us do.
The other groups have already held sessions to install the 3% into there contract that the pilots negotiated,not the twu. The other groups have not recieved a dime so stop trying to scare people into believing that the other groups are already receiving something that they are not. Are you trying to tell stores and m&r that because we voted NO that the twu is going to punish us because we voted NO? Oh I see in the industrial unions eyes a loaf of bread costs the same for everybody and because we voted NO,against the twu's wishes they are going to string us along until they get there way and not try and get a better deal for the NO voters. This tells everybody everything that they need to know about the twu. The international is in charge and not the membership.
 
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