Rumor.......

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Sep 7, 2002
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Our manager said he heard a rumor that 250 pilots are going to be furloughed at the end of October. I don''t know where he heard it from, but it''s about time. There has been an excess of pilots for almost a year. How do I know this? For every 60 hour surplus line there is, that''s one more pilot the company doesn''t need. For those of you who are not aware of this money-saving idea, allow me to fill you in.
After the 20% schedule reduction last Sep-Oct, someone came up with this great idea to have a pilot sit at home, do nothing productive, not use any SL or VAC, and get paid 60 hours. Why? I (along with the rest of us up here) am still trying to figure it out.
The summer of 2000 was, by far, the worst working summer of my life. Never have I been so mis-treated by so many people. And for what? The contract? I bet 99% of the pilots out there have no idea what is in the contract, besides the pay scale, of course. I don''t know how many times I have heard, I can''t read that thing, I''m not a lawyer.. Well guess what, neither am I! But it is my job to know it. Ever heard of a WOCL?
The pilots are 65% responsible for the current track we are on. Upper management, 30%. September 11, 2001, 5%. Our company was headed down long before that horrible day. It''s too bad all those ESOP shares they all have are now worth nothing.
 

Busdrvr

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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Might I suggest you become a pilot? since it's such a good deal and all. The truth is that lately I've caught the crew desk on NUMEROUS ocasions trying to pull a fast one. I usally just say you know thats not right and then do it anyway, we are a team right? I guess honoring the contract works both ways huh? Like all the current illegal furloughees? Get a life Mel.
 

mastermechanic

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
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It's what I've been singing all along my man, glad someone is putting out some real info on the real situation. Thanks...
 

magsau

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Aug 20, 2002
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IMO, the company has been carrying the extra pilots while the bump and flush has been going on. It is not so easy to just lop off the bottom of the seniority list since many of those that would have been cut originally would have left the staffing short in many fleet/seats. (The bottom 1200 were not neccessarily in the seats that needed to be reduced.) It also takes about 6 weeks to transition a pilot through the training center to have them ready to fly the line in their new seat after displacement. Also, the company, as many of the other airlines, was hoping to have a better yield out of the tickets which has not happened.

I believe each job position requires different rules for the reduction. In the past with around 300-400 retirements in the pilot ranks per year it would not make sense to do the bumping and furlouhging only to send them all back to school in about 6 months. The said cost of sending someone through school at TK is around 8-10K per pilot.

This is not a giant conspiracy. The company is hurting and I apologize for the summer of 2000. But if we can not get over this hump and put the past behind us then we are doomed to repeat the past.

By the way, I have worked with a young lady at the Crew Desk that has been a true trooper. Always friendly and very professional. Her name is Flo and she gets a big thumbs up for good attitude. With people like her we will overcome this mess.
 

Winglet

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Aug 20, 2002
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Goodwin and the BOD is 85% responsible for the fix UAL is in. 15% is 9/11. The pilots didn't throw money down the US Air and Avolar ratholes, Goodwin did. The pilots don't set corporate stratedy, management does. Pilots didn't create the Summer of Discontent, Goodwin did by slow rolling the contract AND setting up a schedule HE KNEW he couldn't fly without voluntary overtime by the pilots.
 

mancityfan

Member
Aug 20, 2002
57
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******************************************************************
On 9/9/2002 10:27:16 PM ual-crewdesk-man wrote:

Our manager said he heard a rumor that 250 pilots are going to be furloughed at the end of October. I don't know where he heard it from, but it's about time. There has been an excess of pilots for almost a year. How do I know this? For every 60 hour surplus line there is, that's one more pilot the company doesn't need. For those of you who are not aware of this "money-saving" idea, allow me to fill you in.
******************************************************************


Yes, please do oh omnipotent one! I see this is your first post here. Might I suggest that most people already knew there were surplus lines and they are a DIRECT result of the seniority within the industry and the company's bold move to ground two entire fleets of aircraft on the same day last October. However, to suggest it is some conspiracy by pilots to take 60 hours of pay for nothing is a little absurd. However, one always has to consider the source of such vitriole.


******************************************************************The summer of 2000 was, by far, the worst working summer of my life. Never have I been so mis-treated by so many people. And for what? The contract? I bet 99% of the pilots out there have no idea what is in the contract, besides the pay scale, of course. I don't know how many times I have heard, I can't read that thing, I'm not a lawyer. Well guess what, neither am I! But it is my job to know it. Ever heard of a WOCL?
******************************************************************


Ah, that did not take long! Let's see, for hours upon hours every day, you NORMALLY sit around gossiping and eating and fitting the occassional round peg in a round hole. To do this, you are required to have a basic understanding of Unimatic and Appollo and know the scheduling criteria in the contract. I would bet MOST crew desk people have no idea what is in the non-crew desk parts of the contract. Perhaps the fact that pilots already have a few THOUSAND pages of information they are LEGALLY required to have an understanding of is the reason SOME do not know the gory details of the contract? Or perhaps it is because the crew desk does not believe that what the contract SAYS is what it MEANS? We both know what I am talking about, so let's get off this shall we?

I would just like to know what the words any legal reserve means? Because the crew desk apparently think it means any legal reserve in the silo of our choosing. I have yet to see the extra language in the contract, but then, I am just one of those ignorant pilot types.


******************************************************************The pilots are 65% responsible for the current track we are on. Upper management, 30%. September 11, 2001, 5%. Our company was headed down long before that horrible day. It's too bad all those ESOP shares they all have are now worth nothing.
******************************************************************


Is this the new math? I would love to know how you came up with these numbers. As for the crack about the ESOP shares, they are probably what bought your job...You're welcome!

It is interesting to note the tenor and substance of this post. It is your first post on this forum, it is begun by floating a rumor most pilots think is probably true (although it might be December before it happens based on the last pilot surplus out of fleet/seat), but shortly after that the post turns into a diatribe against pilots for all and sundry....Pilots don't know the finer details of the scheduling section of their contract, sit at home doing nothing productive getting 60 hours pay, responsible for me having to work hard because they DID know they did NOT have to fly overtime during the Summer of 2000, they are 2/3 responsible for the current financial problems at UAL, and glad their multi-billion dollar investment to save the company in 1994 has dwindled to almost nothing.

All I can say is you need to take a break! And, THANK GOD you do not fly airplanes for a living, as you seem a little unbalanced.

However, you provide an excellent example of one of the WORST problems we have at UAL...namely, you went out of your way to come to an internet web forum to make your first post, which was solely to bad-mouth fellow employees because you saw an injustice for which they are completely NOT responsible. However, in your litle world of gossip on 3N, I am sure you are a hero and telling all your buddies!

Does anyone STILL wonder why the crew desk and pilots do not get along? CAN anyone give a few examples of the a-holes who are occasionally on the other end of the line when they pick up the phone at 0200? SHOULD it REALLY be necessary to have it written in your contract that the crew desk will NOT call you before 0700 unless it is required to get you to work on time? Should it really be necessary to tie changing the reserve system to one the crew desk can live with as part of the Economic Recovery Plan? Did the crew desk not get what THEY wanted in the contract negotiations and are now tasting blood in the water and using it as an excuse to gut the QWL items in the contract? SHOULD the crew desk be able to call me ON MY DAYS OFF to schedule me for flights? If I can quote chapter and verse of the contract to the scheduler to show why I should NOT be doing an assignment, should they be able to say we are going to force you to fly and you can grieve it later?? See, there are obviously two sides to everything. Unfortunately, you are oblivious to one of them. Thankfully, I have seen BOTH sides of this coin and there is plenty of grief to share by both sides. However, is THIS the place to get it off your chest????

Get a life, have another donut, spread some more gossip, and enjoy the 9/11 coverage. I hope you are feeling as smug when the pictures of the United pilots and flight attendants who lost their lives are shown, and their names read out on TV. I would watch it myself and remember them in my own private way, but I will be at 35,000 saying a little prayer for the ones I knew personally, hoping I can hold back the emotions while checking in with Cleveland Center at 0746 CST.

Over and out!

mancityfan
 

Captaintomo

Newbie
Sep 10, 2002
2
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Hello Sparman,

You stated:

The pilots are 65% responsible for the current track we are on. Upper management, 30%. September 11, 2001, 5%. Our company was headed down long before that horrible day. It's too bad all those ESOP shares they all have are now worth nothing.

I could not disagree with you more. Obviously you have little respect for the airline piloting profession and the thousands of professional airline pilots at United Airlines who hundreds of times a day take there complex flying machines across the planet, day in and day out in all kinds of weather across many times zones and cultures facing all kinds of threats and mechanical difficulties and do so in a consistently safe manner. I would suggest to you that the Pilots of United airlines are zero 0% responsible for the events of the summer of 2000. United management is 100% responsible for agreeing in writing to reach a seamless contract agreement with the Pilots by April 12, 2000 while never attempting to do so as they were preoccupied in trying to buy US Airways for 11 billion dollars, $60 dollars per share which, by the way, would have already bankrupted UAL. Only the Pilot Director on United's BOD voted AGAINST the US Airways acquisition both times it came up for a vote.

Management at United has coined a phase which you may or may not have heard of but I know it very well. That is, You Fly, We will Manage. Well, the Pilots of United Airlines have held up their end of the bargain exceedingly well.

You seem to take some pleasure in the fact that the 5 years and 9 months that I had to invest approximately 25% of my earnings in UAL stock that I had no opportunity to sell or diversify are now nearly worthless. What kind of a person would take pleasure in such a thing?

You point out that some pilots are unable to recite all sections, interpretations, system board decisions and past practices of their collective bargaining agreement. So what. My job is to fly airplanes and I do that exceedingly well. We have contract experts that we can call on if needed to provide this kind of information. As a Crewman on the Crew Desk, it is your job to know that agreement and implement it correctly. The Company has provided you with training and automation tools to help you do that job. I hope you do it well. In my job, when you don't do it well, people die.

A the dawn of deregulation in 1978, United Airlines was nearly twice as big as it's nearest competitor American. Management is solely responsible for the decisions that THEY have made over the years that have squandered that commanding position. Do you really believe that the Pilots are 65% responsible for the situation we now find ourselves in. Since the ESOP we have had one seat on a twelve seat Board of Directors at UAL and are excluded from several important BOD committees by corporate governance rules. At best, we have one voice to try to influence 11 others, even though we have bought and paid for about 25% ownership of UAL. Seems fair does it not?

Pilot wages over the last 10 years are only up about 1% over inflation. Airfares are down 25% over the last ten years. Management compensation is up dramatically over the same period. Pilot wages at United are similar to those at other major carriers. Delta pilots make more, American a little less (their contract is up for negotiation soon). Southwest pilots actually earn more in total compensation for the type of aircraft they fly then our Pilots do on the same aircraft. You do the math...

As we go forward from here, remembering tomorrow our fallen fellow crew members who had their lives taken from them by terrorist in service to United Airlines and the traveling public, maybe it would be useful for you to take a good look in the mirror and consider what you wrote here and my comments. I consider us family here at United and I will always welcome you and your family aboard my aircraft.

Fraternally,

Captain Tom
 

UAL777flyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
730
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UAL crewdesk,

Wow, talk about making a first impression! I think your post highlights where we are in the grand scheme of things. Tomorrow is the 1 year anniversary of the tragic events of 9/11, and the loss of our fellow employees. What better way to honor the memories of our colleagues who made the ultimate sacrifice than to stop pointing fingers and assigning blame for our problems and instead work together to proactively solve our problems and turn this company around. Forget the Summer of 2000. It's 2 years old. It affected all of us, some more than others. But the bottom line is we must move forward as a company. Continuing to dredge up the problems of the past and assigning blame for them serves no other purpose other than to keep that animosity and anger alive at the most critical juncture in this airline's history.

So while tomorrow will indeed be a difficult time for all of us, I'm hopeful that maybe we can mark it as a new beginning for UA. And hopefully down the road, we'll be able to look back and see that it was a turning point in our road to newfound success and stability. But for the next few days anyway, let's try to put the blame-assignment on hold.
 

Busdrvr

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,217
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/10/2002 11:04:42 AM Captaintomo wrote:

Since the ESOP we have had one seat on a twelve seat Board of Directors at UAL and are excluded from several important BOD committees by corporate governance rules. At best, we have one voice to try to influence 11 others, even though we have bought and paid for about 25% ownership of UAL. Seems fair does it not?


Tom, currently, UALs pilots own, in addition to the the ESOP shres, approx 10% of the publicly traded shares in our PDAP accounts. We are very close to the maximum number of shares wea are allowed to own by the ESOP agreement (wouldn't want them pilots actually running the place ya know). Additionally, I'm sure many pilots own additional stock outside the retirement accounts. the pilots, rightly or wrongly, have confidence in our future and are frankly, putting our money where our mouth is.

Delta pilots make more, American a little less (their contract is up for negotiation soon).

AMRs agreement was amendable 1 year ago. They are currently prob expensing our rates on the balance sheet as they stall as long as they can.
Most importantly, We have literally went from worst to first in many categories. thats something WE ALL can be proud of. we are a team, lets remember that and go forward.
 

magsau

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
787
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IMO the fact that we are leading in statistics for several of the DOT tracking issues is a tribute to the hard work we are all doing. The load factors are some of the highest we have ever had, the security issues alone tend to slow things down and to overcome all of this to still get there on-time is good effort on everyones behalf.

We all play a part in a huge operation. Just think sometimes how many people really are responsible to get these airplanes going. Scheduling,catering,baggage,maintenance, inflight,ticketing,dispatch,atc,cleaning,training,pilots. It is an amazing task to get 300+people on a 777 at exactly the right time to pushback on-time+0. When we do it we should all be proud and continue to do it. The passengers want a cost-efficient and on-time operation. If we can deliver this then we will survive.
 

sastal

Member
Sep 2, 2002
84
0
[P]To All,[/P]
[P]It is ironic that 777flyer utters the following, as it is similar to what I wanted say in response to a posting of a few months ago I can no longer find:[BR][/P]
[P]Tomorrow is the 1 year anniversary of the tragic events of 9/11, and the loss of our fellow employees. What better way to honor the memories of our colleagues who made the ultimate sacrifice than to stop pointing fingers and assigning blame for our problems and instead work together to proactively solve our problems and turn this company around.[BR][/P]
[P]The posting to which I refer was written by a regular in these forums --jetz767 or 767jetz. The pilot, representing the views of many in his profession whom I have met during my career at United, honored United flight attendants and their work, referring to them as individuals who are paid only to shout out commands and who are concerned with domestic partner benefits. [BR][/P]
[P]To 767jetz and all the homophobic, self-absorbed pilots out there who think they are the only ones making a difference on those planes, I say: Do not forget who the first individuals stabbed on those aircraft probably were. Also, recall that it is the flight attendants who perhaps turned on those coffee machines one last time in a desperate attempt to boil some water to oppose the skyjackers and defend the cockpit. It truly upsets me to hear comments such as those, belittling the flight attendant profession. In the service industry in which we work, and at a time when United needs more clientele than it ever has, the last people to be ridiculed and offended should be those who have direct customer contact and who perform their job with dignity, notwithstanding the role that they play. [/P]
[P]sastal[/P]
[P]P.S. First, I am not gay; second, I do not direct these words to those pilots who over the years have backed cabin crews, spared them talk about their yearly income and self importance, and minded their own business about people's orientation. [/P]
 
OP
U
Sep 7, 2002
37
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www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/10/2002 10:12:55 AM mancityfan wrote:

******************************************************************
Yes, please do oh omnipotent one!
******************************************************************
Finally, some respect! And I didn't have to give you a VPC or an extra RDO to get it!



***************************************************
Ah, that did not take long! Let's see, for hours upon hours every day, you NORMALLY sit around gossiping and eating and fitting the occassional round peg in a round hole. To do this, you are required to have a basic understanding of Unimatic and Appollo and know the scheduling criteria in the contract. I would bet MOST crew desk people have no idea what is in the non-crew desk parts of the contract. Perhaps the fact that pilots already have a few THOUSAND pages of information they are LEGALLY required to have an understanding of is the reason SOME do not know the gory details of the contract? Or perhaps it is because the crew desk does not believe that what the contract SAYS is what it MEANS? We both know what I am talking about, so let's get off this shall we?
*************************************************************

You should come up and sit with us one night. The job would be relatively easy if the pilot was where
he/she was supposed to be. No, instead your commuting problem becomes my problem. If I only had a dollar for every time a pilot asked me to book him/her positive space because the loads are heavy.
Ever called in sick before/after VAC, PC, or a PT?
We follow the contract. But as with any group, you have your 5% (anybody ever heard of Jamie Lindsay? I hope not....)I am there to help the company and the pilots. All we want is the pilot to do his/her job and quit complaining (because you're only making $250,000 a year...)



*******************************************************
I would just like to know what the words "any legal reserve" means? Because the crew desk apparently think it means "any legal reserve in the silo of our choosing." I have yet to see the extra language in the contract, but then, I am just one of those ignorant pilot types.
*********************************************************

No one is calling you ignorant. We all know and appreciate the complexity and demands of your job.
But we sit there and cover these trips as best we can. We see SO MUCH waste, from the flight offices (taking the ABN out of almost every pilot who doesn't want to work) to the training center (why does a 300 P/I have to go to LAX the night before to fly a DEN turn?). We see it every day, all day. By no stretch is the company a silent victim. It has done plenty to get us here. But the summer of 2000 and all the bad press it created sealed out doom. Every call was a SL or someone yelling. I'm not reliving it, just letting the facts be known.



***************************************************************
All I can say is you need to take a break! And, THANK GOD you do not fly airplanes for a living, as you seem a little unbalanced.
****************************************************************


Would it make you uncomfortabe to say I'm a Commercial-ME-Instrument pilot and a CFI????
And I'm not an unbalanced person, I just work
with unbalanced people on the other side of the phone. See you on the SL...........
 
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