Seniority?

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Sep 6, 2002
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I have lots of it. Wanna buy some? Wanna know how I got it? I got it buy walking in a door before you and filling out a job application given to me buy someone without the very union protection you and I live under now. What does that mean. It means I am an old person. Seniority, does it make me a better pilot, mechanic, or ramper? Don''t say you are experienced because of your seniority. It is a number. A number that has caused friends and co-workers to fight to the point of never talking to each other again. I over heard two mechanics talking about how much cushion they had. Honey, I am sorry we are going to lose the house, but I just got furloughed because I am someones cushion.
Grow up, you have a job. You may not be able to hold SS day shift, but you are working. Sorry, this has to be my first post, but I have seen more professionalism displayed at my local quick oil change and I am sick and tired of all your whining. Our industry is going to pot quickly. Lets all try to make a difference.
 

kirkpatrick

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Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 9/6/2002 8:43:42 PM geardoorsflapsclear wrote:

Grow up, you have a job. [/blockquote]

What bothers me the most about these seniority arguments isn't the fact that my group has been stapled, but the wonder and awe expressed by so many AAers that we would have expected anything different. Have you ever heard of precedent? There have been literally dozens of airline mergers/acquisitions in the past and in virtually every case labor groups in the acquired airline have received some credit for past service.

Please don't come back with sad stories about how I would be on the street, etc, and should be glad to have a job. I've heard it all before and believe it or not, I AM glad I have a job. I'm not complaining about what has happened to me; I'm simply trying to explain why we might have expected different treatment.

Seniority intetgration is not a new concept conceived by TWA. Stapling is the new concept conceived by AA.
[blockquote]
Our industry is going to pot quickly. Lets all try to make a difference.
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[/blockquote]

What in the world does that have to do with anything? Do you expect me to believe my fate would be any different if the industry weren't in a downturn?

MK
 

Buck

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[BR][STRONG][Q]Seniority intetgration is not a new concept conceived by TWA. Stapling is the new concept conceived by AA.[/Q][BR][/STRONG][BR]What does AA have to do with the intergration of the work force? The company may have made some statements or promises etc...,but the intergration good or bad was an arbitration process for the IAM and TWU.[BR]
 

TWAFA007

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Sep 2, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 9/7/2002 8:29:24 AM Buck wrote:

[STRONG][Q]Seniority intetgration is not a new concept conceived by TWA. Stapling is the new concept conceived by AA.[/Q]
[/STRONG]
What does AA have to do with the intergration of the work force? The company may have made some statements or promises etc...,but the intergration good or bad was an arbitration process for the IAM and TWU.
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[/blockquote]
Aloha Buck,

The intergration process good or bad was an arbitration process for the IAM and TWU. True. Not true for the F/As. The APFA refused to even meet with the IAM. This is probably the first time in history that a Union has refused to even talk to a Union about intergration of like workforces. There was no arbitrator or even the AA PROMISE facilitator. AA along with APFA have broken promises and are setting themselves up for a huge loss in the courts. If you take an impartial Judge or Jury and look at the promises made and not kept there will be great damages that will be very costly to both. It didnt have to be this way. If APFA had acted like a real Union, one based on fellow Brotherhood, it would have never come to this. Its a real shame that F/A seniority will have to be decided in the courts and not at the table.

The TWA F/As would have gladly accepted binding arbitration, but the APFA knows that no one outside their little club would ever agree with how they have treated the TWA F/As. Too bad. IMHO, I feel that the APFA membership are in for a rude awakening when the courts have finally decided this case. Its ashame that this will be followed by a lot of hard feelings on both sides. Just the way Management likes it. Once again I say it didnt have to be this way. If only APFA had acted like a real Union and not like some Exclusive Club. Memebers ONLY.

AA has everything to do with seniority intergration. Carty signed a contract guaranteeing, fair & equitable, and Carty signed off on the APFA seniority agreement. Everyone knows the only seniority that counts at an airline is line/occupational seniority. When the purchase agreement was signed and it had said that all TWA employees would be stapled it would have been different. One it would not have happened, two it didnt. Just my opinion. Lets see who the courts agree with.

ALOHA, 007
 

FA Mikey

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Please spares me the APFA refused to even meet with the IAM. Like the great white knights there were at the APFA door and on the phone just begging to meet with us. Not true.

I have a feeling that your case like the precedent ones before it. Will not make it. Its line after line of fluff. TW f/as would gladly accept binding arbitration. Of course you would. You have nothing to lose.

IAM signed away your rights and now they want to make it up to you, by attempting to bankrupt this company and its unions. I guess that way the former TW people will feel more like at home.

It would have to be this way if APFA acted like a real union. I love that line. The APFA protected its members. Members only? Yea thats the only people we negotiate for. IAM sold you out. Whos the union and whos running a money collecting country club?

Carty said fair and Equitable Ok so. As far as AA and APA and APFA are concerned. Thats exactly what you got. Fair and equitable is not judged on your scale, but on AA's. They laid out the money and they pay the bills.

As far the purchase agreement goes. You guys signed off on your seniority. Then run around shocked that you weren't getting 100% of it. If it was that inmportant. Why oh why would the IAM give it away?
 

MiAAmi

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[blockquote]
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On 9/7/2002 9:45:50 AM TWAFA007 wrote:



The TWA F/As would have gladly accepted binding arbitration,



[/blockquote]

Of course they would, they had nothing to lose. They were in a win/win position. If an arbitrater came in the only ones that would lose anything would be the AA'ers.
 

gogogadget

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Aug 21, 2002
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Kirkpatrick,

Let me ask you this, how many NON UNION types were allowe to keep their job and position an how many AA NON UNION types were put on the street as a result of a more senior/person with more experience doing what they did in industry. I though Compton had more time as a CEO than Carty. Carty has only been the CEO since 98, I think.
There is a distinct advantage to being the aquiring carrier. No matter how you look at it. The precedent was set by AMR/AA!

OOOPS
 

kirkpatrick

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[blockquote]
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On 9/7/2002 5:08:06 PM FA Mikey wrote:

You guys signed off on your seniority. Then run around shocked that you weren't getting 100% of it. If it was that inmportant. Why oh why would the IAM give it away?
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[/blockquote]

I don't know why I even bother to keep calling you on this misinformation. But anyway, here it goes again. The unions at TWA DID NOT sign away seniority. Faced with either signing away a couple of clauses or watching the judge throw away the whole contract, we signed away clauses that, among other things, prevented the company from using foreign nationals to fly our flights. AA could never live with that.

Read this again and please read it carefully: signing away clauses that REQUIRED us to retain 100% seniority as a condition of sale or merger, even in bankruptcy, does not mean no discussions of the issue could take place, nor does it mean no compromising agreement could have been reached.

And let's make one other point clear here. Our bankruptcy has nothing to do with the issue. If we had been profitable, would you have come forward with offers of DOH? Of course not. The bankruptcy is just an excuse to justify what you did. And if we had not signed away the scope clauses you'd be fighting just as hard to staple us.

MK
 
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bagsmasher

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We were all told that TWA's unions signed away their Scope and Succesorship clauses as required in the purchase agreement.
Wouldn't these clauses include seniority issues? If not, why would it be reqired as part of the purchase agreement.
You have to excuse me, because after the screwing we recieved per Mr. Kasher, I don't know what to think. Maybe union contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on.
 
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bagsmasher

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And let's make one other point clear here. Our bankruptcy has nothing to do with the issue. If we had been profitable, would you have come forward with offers of DOH? Of course not. The bankruptcy is just an excuse to justify what you did. And if we had not signed away the scope clauses you'd be fighting just as hard to staple us.

MK



Yes you are right, employees who come to work for my employer years after I did should go AFTER me on the seniority list. You worked for a COMPETITOR, not AA. We don't have to justify $hit.
 

kirkpatrick

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[blockquote]
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On 9/8/2002 12:08:40 AM bagsmasher wrote:

We were all told that TWA's unions signed away their Scope and Succesorship clauses as required in the purchase agreement.
Wouldn't these clauses include seniority issues? If not, why would it be reqired as part of the purchase agreement.
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[/blockquote]

Yes, we did sign away the clauses as mandated by AA. Not to have done so would have meant the judge would have torn up the entire contracts and we would not have had any protection during the integration process.

But as I've said to Mikey so many times, signing away these clauses doesn't mean we gave up any rights; just that we gave up clauses that REQUIRED we get seniority. The pilots signed away their clauses and ended up with an agreement which, while not universally loved by all TWA pilots, at least afforded some of them some seniority. And the mechanics and ramp service people signed away their scope clauses and still won a compromise in arbitration.

MK
 

kirkpatrick

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Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 9/8/2002 12:11:41 AM bagsmasher wrote:

Yes you are right, employees who come to work for my employer years after I did should go AFTER me on the seniority list. You worked for a COMPETITOR, not AA. We don't have to justify $hit.
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[/blockquote]

Then would everyone please stop using the bankruptcy as an argument?

MK
 

MiAAmi

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It doesn't matter what the other unions came to as far as seniority. As a group, we (APFA) decided what was fair. And AA gave us that authority. We can't go back now and say well they ( the pilots or the mech.) got more. We can only look at those decisions for future debates. Whats done is done. The lawsuit only works against the TWA'ers. If you win or lose the lawsuit you have created a seperation from the rest of your co-workers. And not the best enviorment to work in. I have witnessed how some people feel about this. I gather from my dicussions with other f/a's that most feel as though you should look at your years with TWA just the same as those who joined us from Eastern, Pan Am and Braniff. With your ability to retain pay seniority you are already making more money than some of them and thats something that they didn't get. We bought alot of Eastern ***ests (Miami) but that did not give ex-easterner's pay seniority. And if you stay in STL for the next few years you retain your bidding seniority. Most here view that as alot more than they could have ever imagined getting. Don't get me wrong we welcome the TWA'ers and don't want to see any one on furlough. My point is know when to say when.
 

FA Mikey

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By signing away your rights to seniority. You waived all guarantees to that. You all knew when you waived that, it was to say you had no rights to get it back. Everyone knew where the AA unions and company stood on intergration. Reno air was out there and it was going to be the frame work of at least how APFA was going to handle the seniority issues.

The whole idea of had you not waived this claues. AA would have thrown out your whole contract is absurd. There is no way AA could operate the LLC operation with out many of the work rules. The resentment by the employess would be to great a risk. APFA, APA, and TWU would never have allowed a non union second carrier on the property. We know that and former TWer's knew that and the unions there knew that. Had you stood your ground. You would have ended up not being bought by AA, or had your contracts amended as needed, or even possibly removed. That would have likely meant that AA would default you to your old contract minus the scope clauses. Possibly defaulted to the AA union agreements. Waking up one day and AA trying to run a new operation with out work any rules, would amount to complete chaos. So really you guys wanted the sale. Waived the clauses. Figured you could sue and screw AA and its unions after you were protected with jobs, and raises.

Waiving these clauses does not mean that there could be no disscussions on the issue. Just because you guys want to discuss it, doesn't mean AAer's do. There is no incentive. TW said ok to make the sale we will sign it off. As I have said, Reno was the last AA purchase and was how the intergration was going to happen. It was no secret or suprise.

The bankruptcy does have alot to do with it. As does the TW cash position. There were no more options for TW. It has everything to do with the decisions TW and its unions made. Less to do with ours.

As for foreign nationsls. They can only fly thru Miami. It never would have had any affect on the TW operation.

The pilots did some seniority. Because it was the only way to maintain the operation. There is a huge difference between a person who can fly in one seat of one airplane. Over those of us who can fly in any position in any cabin on any plane. Like the agents. Once trained on SABRE, they could work any ground position, gates counter etc.
 
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