So.....Where's the difference?

gilbertguy

Senior
Aug 29, 2002
368
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In some ways HP is a mirror image of U....only on the West Coast. They entered Ch.11.....They got money from Feds.....they are still losing $....yet they are expanding markets....adding new ones(including into U backyard)....now they announce lower fares.....even their inside agts vote down the teamsters! The biggest issue over on their posts is........should they paint more theme planes! So what comparisons can be drawn, if any, from U vs. HP?
 

UAL777flyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
730
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Well, one major difference is labor costs. HP employees are amongst the lowest paid in the industry, much lower on average to US Airways. With their CASM, they have the ability to generate revenue and be profitable when the economy/industry recovers (whenever that will be).

The only way for HP to be a profitable carrier is by drastically keeping labor costs down. That can be successful, but you'll always have high employee turnover. They are primarily a leisure carrier who competes head to head against WN. They are centralized in a very low cost area to operate relative to US Airways extremely high cost operating area of the Northeast. They've been very successful at poaching other carrier's nonstop traffic through their PHX, and to a lesser extent, LAS, hubs. Especially since their fare base restructuring several months ago. If you ask me, they're doing about as well as could be expected in this environment. Once the economy turns north and the industry recovers, I'd expect them to be profitable. But I still think that they'll eventually be swallowed up by another carrier. The other larger majors are finally being forced to change their ways and dramatically restructure themselves. That will put more pressure on HP's ability to co-exist in their present size and scope, in my opinion. I still think that Delta may eventually go after them down the road a bit.
 

Falco

Member
Oct 29, 2002
58
0
[/blockquote]
Again I'll say it.....US needs to look over at HP.....U needs to simplify it's fare structure....U's labor costs are coming down.HP hands out extra flight miles if you use their website to book.....they even outsource in stations that CO has a larger presence, using their labor to work HP....U needs to look at HP and start emulating it's role model....it seems to be working.
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[/blockquote]

Do you also think that U should go with AWA's cost structure (including pay rates), because they go hand-in-hand?
 
OP
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gilbertguy

Senior
Aug 29, 2002
368
0
[blockquote]
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On 11/14/2002 10:39:22 AM Falco wrote:

[/blockquote]
Again I'll say it.....US needs to look over at HP.....U needs to simplify it's fare structure....U's labor costs are coming down.HP hands out extra flight miles if you use their website to book.....they even outsource in stations that CO has a larger presence, using their labor to work HP....U needs to look at HP and start emulating it's role model....it seems to be working.
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[/blockquote]

Do you also think that U should go with AWA's cost structure (including pay rates), because they go hand-in-hand?

Believe me....when U offers you HP's pay rates or furlough you'll take the pay rate......
 
OP
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gilbertguy

Senior
Aug 29, 2002
368
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/12/2002 12:28:46 PM UAL777flyer wrote:

Well, one major difference is labor costs. HP employees are amongst the lowest paid in the industry, much lower on average to US Airways. With their CASM, they have the ability to generate revenue and be profitable when the economy/industry recovers (whenever that will be).

The only way for HP to be a profitable carrier is by drastically keeping labor costs down. That can be successful, but you'll always have high employee turnover. They are primarily a leisure carrier who competes head to head against WN. They are centralized in a very low cost area to operate relative to US Airways extremely high cost operating area of the Northeast. They've been very successful at poaching other carrier's nonstop traffic through their PHX, and to a lesser extent, LAS, hubs. Especially since their fare base restructuring several months ago. If you ask me, they're doing about as well as could be expected in this environment. Once the economy turns north and the industry recovers, I'd expect them to be profitable. But I still think that they'll eventually be swallowed up by another carrier. The other larger majors are finally being forced to change their ways and dramatically restructure themselves. That will put more pressure on HP's ability to co-exist in their present size and scope, in my opinion. I still think that Delta may eventually go after them down the road a bit.
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[/blockquote]
Again I'll say it.....US needs to look over at HP.....U needs to simplify it's fare structure....U's labor costs are coming down.HP hands out extra flight miles if you use their website to book.....they even outsource in stations that CO has a larger presence, using their labor to work HP....U needs to look at HP and start emulating it's role model....it seems to be working.
 

ITRADE

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
2,860
0
DCA/IAD US2
www.geocities.com
Here's some data for ya to ponder. Surmise what you will. My only comment is that, in reference to another thread, PIT only big service is to far west spots or large cities. CLT has much more concentrated service close in (SAV, CHS, RDU, etc.)[BR][BR]The third column is passengers; fourth column is seats; last column is LF. All data Q2 2002.[BR]
 

TomBascom

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
660
0
3A
www.greenfieldtech.com
[blockquote]
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On 11/14/2002 11:34:58 AM ITRADE wrote:

Here's some data for ya to ponder. Surmise what you will. My only comment is that, in reference to another thread, PIT only big service is to far west spots or large cities. CLT has much more concentrated service close in (SAV, CHS, RDU, etc.)

The third column is passengers; fourth column is seats; last column is LF. All data Q2 2002.
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[/blockquote]

Cute picture of a dog but where's the data to be pondered?
 
OP
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gilbertguy

Senior
Aug 29, 2002
368
0
[blockquote]
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On 11/12/2002 11:40:50 AM gilbertguy wrote:

In some ways HP is a mirror image of U....only on the West Coast. They entered Ch.11.....They got money from Feds.....they are still losing $....yet they are expanding markets....adding new ones(including into U backyard)....now they announce lower fares.....even their inside agts vote down the teamsters! The biggest issue over on their posts is........should they paint more theme planes! So what comparisons can be drawn, if any, from U vs. HP?

Again I put this out there.....and judging from other postings, I'm not the only one who thinks the HP model is applicable to it's situation. No one is saying to the letter but it is an option that needs to be explored....sure beats downsizing to a zero sum game......
 

Falco

Member
Oct 29, 2002
58
0
Another reason for not going with the America West model is that United would drop the code sharing with U, just like CAL dropped America West.
 
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gilbertguy

Senior
Aug 29, 2002
368
0
----------------
On 11/16/2002 3:34:45 PM gilbertguy wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/12/2002 11:40:50 AM gilbertguy wrote:

In some ways HP is a mirror image of U....only on the West Coast. They entered Ch.11.....They got money from Feds.....they are still losing $....yet they are expanding markets....adding new ones(including into U backyard)....now they announce lower fares.....even their inside agts vote down the teamsters! The biggest issue over on their posts is........should they paint more theme planes! So what comparisons can be drawn, if any, from U vs. HP?

Again I put this out there.....and judging from other postings, I'm not the only one who thinks the HP model is applicable to it's situation. No one is saying to the letter but it is an option that needs to be explored....sure beats downsizing to a zero sum game......
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[/blockquote]

Interesting reads on HP....and their CEO.........
[url="http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/1117parker17.html"]http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles...17parker17.html[/url]
[url="http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/1115amwest15.html"]http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles...15amwest15.html[/url]
 

LDKIAM

Member
Oct 29, 2002
99
0
Your comments about CLT is wrong, CLT is the largest hub, with flights over all the US, LAX, SFO, SEA, LGA, BOS, DCA, LGW, FRA, DEN, PHX, LAS, DFW, DTW, ORD, MCO, TPA, MIA, FLL, PBI, and numerous carribean destinations. CLT is now the third largest gateway to the carribean behind New York and Miami. CLT serves more cities then any of our hubs.

Charlotte Fact Sheet
Charlotte/Douglas International Airport
Daily Departures
US Airways 261
US Airways Express 201
Total 462

Scope of Charlotte Hub Operation

Charlotte is one of US Airways' three hubs. US Airways operates from 36 jet gates on Concourses B, C, and D, with international flights operating on Concourse D

US Airways Express operates from state of the art Concourse E with 26 gates and 32 aircraft parking positions. US Airways and US Airways Express flies to 105 destinations nonstop each business day, the most of any carrier at Charlotte

US Airways currently has two US Airways Clubs at Charlotte. The B Club is located next to gate B3; and the largest Club a 22,261-square-foot Club and Business Center is located at the juncture of the C and D Concourses

At Charlotte, US Airways' Caribbean service is comprised of daily nonstop roundtrip flights to Aruba, Belize, Bermuda, Cancun, Freeport, Grand Cayman, Montego Bay, Nassau, Providenciales, San Juan and St. Thomas, with weekend roundtrip service available to Cozumel and St. Maarten

US Airways is Charlottes' sixth private employer with 7094 employees

US Airways Charlotte Facilities

Heavy Maintenance hangar and Line Maintenance hangars

Stock distribution building for aircraft and equipment parts

Crew training building with 10 simulators for Airbus and Boeing aircraft

Ground Support Equipment building

Maintenance Support Building

Cargo/Catering building

Economic Impact in 2001:

$779,502,468 in annual salaries and related

$1,229,356,133 in annual expenditures

NOTE: During the company's restructuring the number of daily flights could vary.

November 2002
Charlotte Douglas International Airport
5501 Josh Birmingham Parkway
Charlotte, NC 28219
 
OP
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gilbertguy

Senior
Aug 29, 2002
368
0
[blockquote]
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On 11/17/2002 9:31:46 AM TomBascom wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 11/16/2002 4:07:51 PM Falco wrote:

Another reason for not going with the America West model is that United would drop the code sharing with U, just like CAL dropped America West.
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[/blockquote]

That would be a good trade.

With UA in financial trouble also.....hooking with HP and giving US the West Coast which we pissed away as well as the Southwest which we never had.....we could meet in the middle....HOU/DFW SAT.....LAS even since HP is about to ponce on National' old routes......even the equipment matches....let the bigger presence work the smaller one in selected cities......
10.gif']
 

TomBascom

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
660
0
3A
www.greenfieldtech.com
[blockquote]
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On 11/16/2002 4:07:51 PM Falco wrote:

Another reason for not going with the America West model is that United would drop the code sharing with U, just like CAL dropped America West.
----------------
[/blockquote]

That would be a good trade.
 

KCFlyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
10,843
1,343
www.usaviation.com
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 11/17/2002 10:29:30 AM Falco wrote:
[P]Give up the idea of going with HP's fare structure. When they did it, they had very few people paying the high walkup fares anyway. In spite of the drop in business travel, U still does get some high fare travellers (look at the yield compared to HP). U couldn't make up for the loss of that revenue with higher volume because it has been proven many times that lower fares don't stimulate much in the way of more BUSINESS travelers.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Seems to be working for Southwest.......
 

Falco

Member
Oct 29, 2002
58
0
Give up the idea of going with HP's fare structure. When they did it, they had very few people paying the high walkup fares anyway. In spite of the drop in business travel, U still does get some high fare travellers (look at the yield compared to HP). U couldn't make up for the loss of that revenue with higher volume because it has been proven many times that lower fares don't stimulate much in the way of more BUSINESS travelers.