Southwest Ceo Lands In Hot Seat
- Thread starter Doc
- Start date
ClueByFour
Veteran
It's an online poll. Stands to reason that every FA and their brother probably voted. Not exactly a metric of horrid performance. I'd worry if 29,000 stockbrokers felt that he was/is doing a bad job...Doc said:
KCFlyer
Veteran
Mr. McDaniel, by focusing on the "evil Jim Parker", is conveniently forgetting that Herb Kelleher is still the chairman of the board, and most likely BACKS his CEO 100%. And he will have to share in the blame for any long term ill effects at the "LUV airline". Just do a google search on "Thom McDaniel" and "Southwest Airlines" to see his media circus. Sorry FA's...but as much as you don't want to think that your negotiations are being conducted in the media, your union president has been working overtime at the media negotiating table. It looks like he even turned down an opportunity to meet with Mr. Parker because Parker said he'd come - if there were no media coverage. But the media coverage was more important, so Parker declined. It seems to me, a lowly non-union worker, that your union leadership would welcome any opportunity to move towards an agreement, but apparently, if the media ain't there, the meeting is off.
Wrong.
Parker asked our Union to stop the public campaign, and refuse media interviews from then on. There was not going to be any media attendance at their meeting. The Union NT has never requested media at their negotiating sessions. Parker wanted the Union to completely stop the public campaign entirely. It had nothing to do with that particular meeting.
No, Thom doesn't have paparazzi following him into negotiations sessions, nor would he ever ask for or even want that.
Parker asked our Union to stop the public campaign, and refuse media interviews from then on. There was not going to be any media attendance at their meeting. The Union NT has never requested media at their negotiating sessions. Parker wanted the Union to completely stop the public campaign entirely. It had nothing to do with that particular meeting.
No, Thom doesn't have paparazzi following him into negotiations sessions, nor would he ever ask for or even want that.
KCFlyer
Veteran
Am I really? Seems to me like Mr. McDaniel is more devoted to his "stragegic bargaining campaign" than he is to getting his members a contract. What did Parker demand? Simply this - stop negotiating thru the media. What was Mr. McDaniels response?swagalleyhag said:
Here's some news for Mr. McDaniel - your customers for the most part don't give a rats ass about your issues. They could care less if you were actually PAYING Southwest to go to work for them. What matters to your customers is this - the price of the ticket. Period. Of the two folks (Parker and McDaniel), Parker strikes this customer as the one who wants to get y'all a contract. Mr. McDaniel seems more intent on seeing his name in the Baltimore Sun, LA Times, Orlando Sentinal, Miami Herald, Forbes just to name a few. Imagine if McDaniel focused more on the issues at the bargaining table than he focuses on his hairstyle for a hoped for 60 minutes segment. From what I've been reading, his "strategic bargaining campaign" (negotiating thru the media) has so far resulted in a withdrawl of some of the things the company has already offered. From reading my history books, most General's, when faced with a losing strategy, cut their losses and drop that strategy and adopt another.
Why didn't Mr. McDaniel offer to put the last company offer to a vote of the FA's? Because he figures that the company expects a no vote and is withholding the "good stuff". So his tactic is to "shame" the company into including the "good stuff" in the first offer. But I believe that he didn't put the offer to a vote of the membership because he had a strong gut feeling that it would have been APPROVED by a majority of the FA's. I don't know how many FA's work at Southwest, but it would scare the hell out of me to know that ONE MAN was deciding what was or wasn't right for me.
Also...perhaps you can confirm or deny what I read on another board - That Mr. McDaniel was involved in negotitions at Eastern and the AA FA's contract? If true, he's got two strikes against him. It'd be a shame if the SWA FA's ended up being strike three.
The reason Mr. McDaniel didn't put the company's offer to a vote is because it was a PROPOSAL by Management. Using your logic, if it's OK to put PROPOSALs to a vote, without having a Tentative Agreement (meaning that it was agreed to by BOTH parties), why don't the Company and Union do a "multiple choice" vote?
The Railway Labor Act's rules for Negotiations state that Unions are the bargaining agent for the Members. The way it works is this: Management and the Union's Negotiating Committees come to an AGREEMENT, and then present that to the members for a vote. As Union Members, we view your suggestion that the Membership votes on Management's PROPOSAL just as ludicrous as the way you would probably view it if we said, let's let our Members vote only on the UNION proposal to which Management has not agreed.
As to your last completely ridiculous suggestion that Thom McDaniel was involved in previous AA and/or Eastern contract... well (SURPRISE) you're wrong again. I know Thom McDaniel well, and can 100% verify for you that he DID NOT take any part in ANY other Flight Attendant Union's Contract Negotiations. Not AA, Not Eatern, Not anyone except Southwest. Whoever wrote that is absolutely incorrect.
The Railway Labor Act's rules for Negotiations state that Unions are the bargaining agent for the Members. The way it works is this: Management and the Union's Negotiating Committees come to an AGREEMENT, and then present that to the members for a vote. As Union Members, we view your suggestion that the Membership votes on Management's PROPOSAL just as ludicrous as the way you would probably view it if we said, let's let our Members vote only on the UNION proposal to which Management has not agreed.
As to your last completely ridiculous suggestion that Thom McDaniel was involved in previous AA and/or Eastern contract... well (SURPRISE) you're wrong again. I know Thom McDaniel well, and can 100% verify for you that he DID NOT take any part in ANY other Flight Attendant Union's Contract Negotiations. Not AA, Not Eatern, Not anyone except Southwest. Whoever wrote that is absolutely incorrect.
Back on track. Your CEO's job performance rating results are tied directly to an internal issue and not to how successfully he is steering the company through the toughest cycle in airline history, which is the real issue. He is doing an outstanding job with that even if the credit should go to the man behind the curtain (Herb). Good luck with your negotiations. I hope that you get a fair contract and then can focus on continuing your expansion plan.
KCFlyer
Veteran
So...two years without a contract - a "proposal" for a contract that is turned down pretty much by a handful of people called a "negotiating committee. The rampers union took a proposal, agreed to a "tentative agreement" and put it to a vote. It was voted down. Negotiations continued. Mr. McDaniels strategy appears to be one that, rather than "vote down" a first tentative agreement, they would use a "stragegic bargaining campaign" and negotiate via the media to "shame" the company into giving their "best and final offer" the first time. What part of that is not correct?swagalleyhag said:
While Mr. McDaniel might feel that Parkers demand for a media blackout is "indefensible", there are many such as myself who feel that his efforts would be much more beneficial to the union members if he decided to leave the media out of the negotiations. But...he won't because "our issues are important to our customers". Poppycock. In reality, I feel that Mr. McDaniel has a bit of an ego, and to see your name in such prestigeous publications as Forbes and the Wall Street Journal, as well as newspapers read by millions in major cities accross America, is just too good to pass up.
Bottom line, I think it's about time that Mr. McDaniel changed strategies. I don't think you like folks like me discussing your negotiations on an airline board. AFter all, I'm not a Southwest FA. But your "bargaining agent" appears to invite such criticism, since he says that your issues are important to me, the customer. He cites the low pay of a starting FA ( a number which has varied in almost every publication I've read), but the average Joe out there knows that an "entry level" position, which is pretty much what a new hire FA is, isn't going to make you a millionaire. Factor in the per diem, the low cost to the employee for health insurance, the profit sharing, and the VERY generous 401K match, and you'll see that an "entry level" position as a Southwest FA pays considerably more than an "entry level" position in most companies outside the airline industry. MAny of those positions are held by....your customers.
As for Mr. McDaniel and EAL and AA - thank you for the clarification. As I said "if true". Apparently it isn't. SWA may not be strike three. But it's heading fast for strike one - unless Mr. McDaniel reaches a point where he decides that it might be better to abandon the 'strategic bargaining campaign" resort to more "traditional" negotiating.
I have written megabytes of commentary from the flight attendant perspective and yet...here we are again batting the same birdie back and forth across the net...."Thom McDaniel is the Devil"..."No he's not"..."Yes he is"...."No he's not"...."Yes he is"...blah blah blah blah blah
Since all the well thought out polysyllabic words seem to get glossed over I think I'll try a new approach and keep this one short and sweet....Talking Points if you will...this is after all an election year.
1. Thom McDaniel has the willing support of the majority of the membership.
2. The membership has seen the company's proposal.
3. A 4 page brochure was placed in our mailboxes payscales and details included.
4. Each member has been told how much retro the company's offer would pay them....to the penny. That figure is updated every time we are paid.
5. The membership remains underwhelmed by the company's offer.
6. There has has been no groundswell of pressure to put the company's offer to a vote.
7. Member participation at union sponsored events is up, not down.
8. We don't vote on proposals. We vote on tentative agreements. We do not have a tentative agreement.
9. Telling people under what circumstances they should do their jobs is condescending, elitist, and offensive.
10. The flight attendant at Southwest Airlines are angry
11. The flight attendants are angry with Southwest Airlines, not Thom McDaniel.
12. Being forcefed a contract we find subpar will only make us angrier
13. If we accepted the companys offer now we would be in this same position again in another 3 years.
14. The company's proposal does not fully meet the needs of the
membership.
15. Better we should see this through to the end and settle the issue once and for all.
16. I am not a mindless drone following an evil svengali.
17. Neither are most of my 7,300 co-workers
18. I am capable of independent thought.
19. I have looked at all of the issues
20. I have thought about it.
21. Thom McDaniel still has my support.
22. This was kinda fun.
23. I should structure more of my posts this way.
24. Have a good weekend
Since all the well thought out polysyllabic words seem to get glossed over I think I'll try a new approach and keep this one short and sweet....Talking Points if you will...this is after all an election year.
1. Thom McDaniel has the willing support of the majority of the membership.
2. The membership has seen the company's proposal.
3. A 4 page brochure was placed in our mailboxes payscales and details included.
4. Each member has been told how much retro the company's offer would pay them....to the penny. That figure is updated every time we are paid.
5. The membership remains underwhelmed by the company's offer.
6. There has has been no groundswell of pressure to put the company's offer to a vote.
7. Member participation at union sponsored events is up, not down.
8. We don't vote on proposals. We vote on tentative agreements. We do not have a tentative agreement.
9. Telling people under what circumstances they should do their jobs is condescending, elitist, and offensive.
10. The flight attendant at Southwest Airlines are angry
11. The flight attendants are angry with Southwest Airlines, not Thom McDaniel.
12. Being forcefed a contract we find subpar will only make us angrier
13. If we accepted the companys offer now we would be in this same position again in another 3 years.
14. The company's proposal does not fully meet the needs of the
membership.
15. Better we should see this through to the end and settle the issue once and for all.
16. I am not a mindless drone following an evil svengali.
17. Neither are most of my 7,300 co-workers
18. I am capable of independent thought.
19. I have looked at all of the issues
20. I have thought about it.
21. Thom McDaniel still has my support.
22. This was kinda fun.
23. I should structure more of my posts this way.
24. Have a good weekend
KCFlyer
Veteran
I'll summarize my posts:SWAFA30 said:
1. Thom McDaniel should focus more on negotiations than he does on newspaper interviews.
2. Pissing off the other party rarely gets you anywhere. You're pissed off at the company. The company is pissed off at the union tactics of negotiating via the media. The union is pissed off at the company's insistance on a media blackout.
3. There still isn't a media blackout, but negotiations are at a standstill. Both sides are waiting for the other to blink
4. A lockout may occur before the opposition blinks
5. Personalizing a negotiation (PARKER is the problem...oh look at what's happened to the house that Herb built) doesn't accomplish much. What it does accomplish ain't real great for the workforce (see Eastern and Frank Lorenzo...who "won"?). Mr. McDaniel may not be personalizing it at the negotiating table, but to the media, the "strategic bargaining" agent, he certainly is.
1. Thom McDaniel should focus more on negotiations than he does on newspaper interviews.
Are you truly concerned about Thom's ability to multi-task or does his chosen strategy simply tick you off. I swear I can "feel" your blood pressure go up when you "speak" about this guy...what up with that? Before you say..."I want the flight attendants to get a fair contract and Thom is standing in the way..." Don't we're big boys and girls. We can think for ourselves, we can take care of ourselves. Trust us to do what is necessary with Thom when he stops representing us effectively. Second, if you are worrying about ticket prices...again, don't. The Southwest Model will be protected above all else. I believe to the center of who I am that Jim Parker would fire us en masse on Christmas Day without blinking before he would raise ticket prices to offset our pay raise. The fares will be protected no matter what happens with the stews.
2. Pissing off the other party rarely gets you anywhere. You're pissed off at the company. The company is pissed off at the union tactics of negotiating via the media. The union is pissed off at the company's insistance on a media blackout.
And the world goes round and round.
3. There still isn't a media blackout, but negotiations are at a standstill. Both sides are waiting for the other to blink
Actually, the stalemate is kinda nice. People are not standing around in huddles in the crew lounge whispering about who said what about whom and where. The quiet is a welcome change. Sometimes stalemates are good....allows both sides to take a deep breath and regroup.
4. A lockout may occur before the opposition blinks
That word does not scare me. My flight attendant job at SWA is just that, a job. Overall, a good job. A job I enjoy. But, my time is valuable, my contribution to the success of SWA is valuable. I have decided under what circumstances I am willing to give my time and energy to SWA. If the company disagrees with me to the point that they are willing to fire me....I can live with that. Believe it or not an alarming number of my co-workers feel the same way. We are not fools, we know how this could very well play out. Take a moment and think about how deep our sentiments must run if we are willing to put our livelihoods on the line. Just take a moment and think about that.
5. Personalizing a negotiation (PARKER is the problem...oh look at what's happened to the house that Herb built) doesn't accomplish much.
But it does. The whole premise on which SWA was built is that this is not just a company but a group of people that cares about one another that just happens to be running and airline. THAT is the party line, the kool-aid drip IV that we are hooked up to from day one. Well you can't have it both ways...you can't go on and on about loving and caring and hearts and flowers and then tell your largest union to go sit on it and rotate.
What it does accomplish ain't real great for the workforce (see Eastern and Frank Lorenzo...who "won"?).
The Airline Industry "won" because Frank Lorenzo is now barred from owning or running an airline. CEOs have egos too.
Mr. McDaniel may not be personalizing it at the negotiating table, but to the media, the "strategic bargaining" agent, he certainly is.
They(the media) do of course have the option of ignoring Thom when he speaks to a reporter or submits a letter or op ed piece. . He couldn't pontificate if they didn't give him a platform. Full Page ads in USA Today ain't cheap if the media just ignored all of this in the first place we would not be having this "conversation" .
The fastest and easiest way to shut Thom McDaniel and the rest of the negotiating team up is to give them a proposal that they can bring to the membership. Period.
Jim Parker has just as much power to end this as Thom McDaniel.
Jim Parker has just as much power to end this as Thom McDaniel.
Jim Parker has just as much power to end this as Thom McDaniel.
Whew...I'm exhausted...I think I liked my Talking Points version much better.
Are you truly concerned about Thom's ability to multi-task or does his chosen strategy simply tick you off. I swear I can "feel" your blood pressure go up when you "speak" about this guy...what up with that? Before you say..."I want the flight attendants to get a fair contract and Thom is standing in the way..." Don't we're big boys and girls. We can think for ourselves, we can take care of ourselves. Trust us to do what is necessary with Thom when he stops representing us effectively. Second, if you are worrying about ticket prices...again, don't. The Southwest Model will be protected above all else. I believe to the center of who I am that Jim Parker would fire us en masse on Christmas Day without blinking before he would raise ticket prices to offset our pay raise. The fares will be protected no matter what happens with the stews.
2. Pissing off the other party rarely gets you anywhere. You're pissed off at the company. The company is pissed off at the union tactics of negotiating via the media. The union is pissed off at the company's insistance on a media blackout.
And the world goes round and round.
3. There still isn't a media blackout, but negotiations are at a standstill. Both sides are waiting for the other to blink
Actually, the stalemate is kinda nice. People are not standing around in huddles in the crew lounge whispering about who said what about whom and where. The quiet is a welcome change. Sometimes stalemates are good....allows both sides to take a deep breath and regroup.
4. A lockout may occur before the opposition blinks
That word does not scare me. My flight attendant job at SWA is just that, a job. Overall, a good job. A job I enjoy. But, my time is valuable, my contribution to the success of SWA is valuable. I have decided under what circumstances I am willing to give my time and energy to SWA. If the company disagrees with me to the point that they are willing to fire me....I can live with that. Believe it or not an alarming number of my co-workers feel the same way. We are not fools, we know how this could very well play out. Take a moment and think about how deep our sentiments must run if we are willing to put our livelihoods on the line. Just take a moment and think about that.
5. Personalizing a negotiation (PARKER is the problem...oh look at what's happened to the house that Herb built) doesn't accomplish much.
But it does. The whole premise on which SWA was built is that this is not just a company but a group of people that cares about one another that just happens to be running and airline. THAT is the party line, the kool-aid drip IV that we are hooked up to from day one. Well you can't have it both ways...you can't go on and on about loving and caring and hearts and flowers and then tell your largest union to go sit on it and rotate.
What it does accomplish ain't real great for the workforce (see Eastern and Frank Lorenzo...who "won"?).
The Airline Industry "won" because Frank Lorenzo is now barred from owning or running an airline. CEOs have egos too.
Mr. McDaniel may not be personalizing it at the negotiating table, but to the media, the "strategic bargaining" agent, he certainly is.
They(the media) do of course have the option of ignoring Thom when he speaks to a reporter or submits a letter or op ed piece. . He couldn't pontificate if they didn't give him a platform. Full Page ads in USA Today ain't cheap if the media just ignored all of this in the first place we would not be having this "conversation" .
The fastest and easiest way to shut Thom McDaniel and the rest of the negotiating team up is to give them a proposal that they can bring to the membership. Period.
Jim Parker has just as much power to end this as Thom McDaniel.
Jim Parker has just as much power to end this as Thom McDaniel.
Jim Parker has just as much power to end this as Thom McDaniel.
Whew...I'm exhausted...I think I liked my Talking Points version much better.
ELP_WN_Psgr
Senior
- Nov 29, 2003
- 419
- 0
I'll add a few bulletized comments:
1. It's a shame that employee greed has taken root at Southwest Airlines Co., at least among the FAs.
2. You can;t always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you'll find, you get what you need.
3. Lockouts work. See mechanics 1977 (or was it 78?)
4. If FAs try any "funny stuff" (ie non-strike work actions---CHAOS, sickouts, what-have-you.....Parker WILL lock you out)
5. Parker is not the enemy. Herb is the one telling Parker what to do here. If Herb wasn't in favor of this he would have butted in a long time ago and told Parker what to give you. I know Herb. Herb is smart but he doesn't enjoy telling people No. he doesn;t mind having other folks tell you No for him. So, if you are going to demonize Parker, you probably need to demonize Herb too.
6. FAs could probably wrangle a healthy (and I do mean healthy) wage increase if they would realize they are not going to get anywhere fighting work rules. Work rules are where WN is able to kick everyone's tail.
7. The economy is on the rebound, so those FAs who throw their livelihoods away "for what is right and just and fair" (gag me with a spoon) ought to be able to find employment elsewhere after the fact.
8. We, the fare paying public, are vociferously in favor of the company doing whatever it takes to keep our fares low. And we trust the company's accountant a whole lot more than we do the union's. The union's money folks saying "it will only raise the ASM cost a little bit" is like telling your girlfriend at the drive-in movie, back in high school...that this will only get you a little bit pregnant. In case you havent noticed, there are competing airlines nipping at WN's heels. You are a whole lot better being the in charge of your own destiny than having to rely on the kindness of strangers. If you don;t believe me, ask Blanche DuBois or US Airways.
9. The 1st year FA salary doesn;t alarm us because, as KC pointed out, that is entry level type stuff. And a 1st year FA at Southwest makes a lot more than a 1st year FA at any of the so-called majors...because all of their first-year employees are non existent. Let's keep this in perspective, please.
10. Me, my wife, my sister in law, and a whole bunch of folks are ready to take entry level wages to get a job where we get passes. I think the salary cut i would take would be more than made up for by the savings....what I spend a year on airplane tickets. Therefore, you should be kind enough to at least take what I say into consideration. I pay a healthy chunk of change each year on airplane tickets. What the union (specifically, its leadership) has said and done has annoyed me and caused me to feel a great deal of disdain for their demands..both the legitimate and the illegitimate ones. You'd have done much better to quit squawking in the media and present the company with a reasonable counterproposal. Nope...can't do that....it's a whole lot more fun to try to paint Jim Parker as evil incarnate. Folks, it ain't working. Your passengers...remember us? The folks who pay your salary? We sort of admire ol' Jim for sticking to his guns in an effort to avoid the sort of ASM cost creep that ate US' lunch.
11. That being said, we're not against a raise. What we (passengers) don't much care for is any employee group setting themselves up as indispensable. As important as the employees are to the airline, it doesn;t belong to the employees. It belongs to the shareholders. Granted, 10% of the airline (thru stock) probably does belong to the employees. That means the other 90% belongs to the shareholders.
12. It may be fun to demonize the management but the management of Southwest Airlines Co has kept the company in a position to succeed. Most other airlines are not in that position. Layoffs, furloughs, concessions, hiring freezes....those haven't been an issue at Southwest. Trying to paint management as the enemy is something for which you shoudl be deeply ashamed of your union leadership. My advice is still this - get yourself a good raise. Don't fuss about the piddly stuff. You keep fighting over things that don't matter and ultimately you are going to lose on the issues that do. Southwest has always paid decent money for hard work. In the big scheme of things, that is fair and just. Take the money and run.
1. It's a shame that employee greed has taken root at Southwest Airlines Co., at least among the FAs.
2. You can;t always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you'll find, you get what you need.
3. Lockouts work. See mechanics 1977 (or was it 78?)
4. If FAs try any "funny stuff" (ie non-strike work actions---CHAOS, sickouts, what-have-you.....Parker WILL lock you out)
5. Parker is not the enemy. Herb is the one telling Parker what to do here. If Herb wasn't in favor of this he would have butted in a long time ago and told Parker what to give you. I know Herb. Herb is smart but he doesn't enjoy telling people No. he doesn;t mind having other folks tell you No for him. So, if you are going to demonize Parker, you probably need to demonize Herb too.
6. FAs could probably wrangle a healthy (and I do mean healthy) wage increase if they would realize they are not going to get anywhere fighting work rules. Work rules are where WN is able to kick everyone's tail.
7. The economy is on the rebound, so those FAs who throw their livelihoods away "for what is right and just and fair" (gag me with a spoon) ought to be able to find employment elsewhere after the fact.
8. We, the fare paying public, are vociferously in favor of the company doing whatever it takes to keep our fares low. And we trust the company's accountant a whole lot more than we do the union's. The union's money folks saying "it will only raise the ASM cost a little bit" is like telling your girlfriend at the drive-in movie, back in high school...that this will only get you a little bit pregnant. In case you havent noticed, there are competing airlines nipping at WN's heels. You are a whole lot better being the in charge of your own destiny than having to rely on the kindness of strangers. If you don;t believe me, ask Blanche DuBois or US Airways.
9. The 1st year FA salary doesn;t alarm us because, as KC pointed out, that is entry level type stuff. And a 1st year FA at Southwest makes a lot more than a 1st year FA at any of the so-called majors...because all of their first-year employees are non existent. Let's keep this in perspective, please.
10. Me, my wife, my sister in law, and a whole bunch of folks are ready to take entry level wages to get a job where we get passes. I think the salary cut i would take would be more than made up for by the savings....what I spend a year on airplane tickets. Therefore, you should be kind enough to at least take what I say into consideration. I pay a healthy chunk of change each year on airplane tickets. What the union (specifically, its leadership) has said and done has annoyed me and caused me to feel a great deal of disdain for their demands..both the legitimate and the illegitimate ones. You'd have done much better to quit squawking in the media and present the company with a reasonable counterproposal. Nope...can't do that....it's a whole lot more fun to try to paint Jim Parker as evil incarnate. Folks, it ain't working. Your passengers...remember us? The folks who pay your salary? We sort of admire ol' Jim for sticking to his guns in an effort to avoid the sort of ASM cost creep that ate US' lunch.
11. That being said, we're not against a raise. What we (passengers) don't much care for is any employee group setting themselves up as indispensable. As important as the employees are to the airline, it doesn;t belong to the employees. It belongs to the shareholders. Granted, 10% of the airline (thru stock) probably does belong to the employees. That means the other 90% belongs to the shareholders.
12. It may be fun to demonize the management but the management of Southwest Airlines Co has kept the company in a position to succeed. Most other airlines are not in that position. Layoffs, furloughs, concessions, hiring freezes....those haven't been an issue at Southwest. Trying to paint management as the enemy is something for which you shoudl be deeply ashamed of your union leadership. My advice is still this - get yourself a good raise. Don't fuss about the piddly stuff. You keep fighting over things that don't matter and ultimately you are going to lose on the issues that do. Southwest has always paid decent money for hard work. In the big scheme of things, that is fair and just. Take the money and run.
1. It's a shame that employee greed has taken root at Southwest Airlines Co., at least among the FAs.
One man's greed is another man's fairness.
2. You can;t always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you'll find, you get what you need.
Who is in the best position to decide what I as a flight attendant at SWA need?
3. Lockouts work. See mechanics 1977 (or was it 78?)
I said that word does not scare me and I meant it.
4. If FAs try any "funny stuff" (ie non-strike work actions---CHAOS, sickouts, what-have-you.....Parker WILL lock you out)
We will do what we gotta do...Jim will do what Jim's gotta do.
5. Parker is not the enemy. Herb is the one telling Parker what to do here. If Herb wasn't in favor of this he would have butted in a long time ago and told Parker what to give you. I know Herb. Herb is smart but he doesn't enjoy telling people No. he doesn;t mind having other folks tell you No for him. So, if you are going to demonize Parker, you probably need to demonize Herb too.
Pity Jim didn't take a page out of Herb's book and let someone else do the dirty work.
6. FAs could probably wrangle a healthy (and I do mean healthy) wage increase if they would realize they are not going to get anywhere fighting work rules. Work rules are where WN is able to kick everyone's tail.
Work rules and compensation go hand in hand. Compensate your people fairly and they become much more flexible with the work rules.
7. The economy is on the rebound, so those FAs who throw their livelihoods away "for what is right and just and fair" (gag me with a spoon) ought to be able to find employment elsewhere after the fact.
That's the plan my man. Virgin is coming stateside, jetBlue's 190s are in the pipline, AirTran and Frontier are growing. Just like there are people ready and willing to take my job....there are other airlines ready and willing to put me to work. Unless of course...gasp...I decided to actually leave the industry. There is life after airline work isn't there?
8. We, the fare paying public, are vociferously in favor of the company doing whatever it takes to keep our fares low. And we trust the company's accountant a whole lot more than we do the union's.
Why? Is the company less susceptible to bias as the union?
The union's money folks saying "it will only raise the ASM cost a little bit" is like telling your girlfriend at the drive-in movie, back in high school...that this will only get you a little bit pregnant
You lost me there. I was raised to wait until the wedding night. But I get your point.
In case you havent noticed, there are competing airlines nipping at WN's heels.
Such has been the case since this airlines inception. I am a reasonable person. If the cost pressure of the unions proposals truly put SWA at risk...then Parker need to say so. Don't hem and haw and allude to and hint at...come right out and say it. Take a full page ad in USA Today...you know how we flight attendant like that...laying out exactly what will happen to the this company if the raises we are asking for are implemented. Tell me to my face that the financial intergrity of the company must be protected above all. All of this tap dancing is keeping the company from moving forward and me and ultimately the rest of the membership from getting on with my life whether it is at SWA or elsewhere.
You are a whole lot better being the in charge of your own destiny than having to rely on the kindness of strangers. If you don;t believe me, ask Blanche DuBois or US Airways.
Great Movie, Great Airline. Sad endings for both.
9. The 1st year FA salary doesn;t alarm us because, as KC pointed out, that is entry level type stuff. And a 1st year FA at Southwest makes a lot more than a 1st year FA at any of the so-called majors...because all of their first-year employees are non existent. Let's keep this in perspective, please.
Why would the first year payscale alarm you? You don't have to work under it. The other majors are broke or darn close. Southwest Airlines is not.
10. Me, my wife, my sister in law, and a whole bunch of folks are ready to take entry level wages to get a job where we get passes.
We have 7 more training classes planned this year and we are actively hiring. Come on over. Give me my raise and they can keep their passes. I'll buy my own plane tickets.
I think the salary cut i would take would be more than made up for by the savings....what I spend a year on airplane tickets.
Which means passes mean alot to those who travel alot and don't mean much at all to the homebodies. Which is why the vast majority of us don't consider it part of the compensation package.
Therefore, you should be kind enough to at least take what I say into consideration.
Done.
I pay a healthy chunk of change each year on airplane tickets.
And I give an enormous chunk of my life to Southwest everytime I go to work. You get transportation in exchange for your money you spend. I get a paycheck in exchange for the work that I do. Ultimately, we are both trying to get the best deal.
What the union (specifically, its leadership) has said and done has annoyed me and caused me to feel a great deal of disdain for their demands..both the legitimate and the illegitimate ones.
I'm sorry. I truly am. But noone has ever been annoyed to death....except for maybe Samson. Poor Guy.
You'd have done much better to quit squawking in the media and present the company with a reasonable counterproposal.
The problem is that your view of reasonable and mine are divergent.
Nope...can't do that....it's a whole lot more fun to try to paint Jim Parker as evil incarnate.
Fun? No. The past two years have been anything but fun. See you get to take this up and put and down when ever you sign onto a message board or pick up a newspaper. I don't have that luxury. This has been my life for almost 2 years with no end in sight. But, it's okay. I can take it. I'm a big boy. If anything it has helped me disconnect emotionally from this company. When I came here 8 years ago, I thought I mattered...turns out I'm just an employee number. I can go be an employee number anywhere. Which is why I said and I meant that I can leave here with no qualms and no regrets.
Folks, it ain't working. Your passengers...remember us? The folks who pay your salary? We sort of admire ol' Jim for sticking to his guns in an effort to avoid the sort of ASM cost creep that ate US' lunch.
We carry a whole lotta people are you absolutely sure you speak for all of them? We know where the money comes from. That is why you still get your Diet Coke and a refill on a 28 minute flight. Say what you will about this contract being negotiated in public but one thing we have NEVER done is forgotten the Customer and lowered the level of service. We have come to work and done our jobs and gotten the planes off the gate. Thus far, the most our customer has had to endure is informational picketing and inflammatory statements to press. We have by and large kept this out of the cabin.
11. That being said, we're not against a raise. What we (passengers) don't much care for is any employee group setting themselves up as indispensable.
We never said we were indespensible. Not even the President of the United States is indespensible. That's why he comes with a spare. The truth is that SWA has spent the past 30 some odd years telling us that we are the best in the industry at what we do and we are now asking them to literally put their money where their mouth is.
As important as the employees are to the airline, it doesn;t belong to the employees. It belongs to the shareholders. Granted, 10% of the airline (thru stock) probably does belong to the employees. That means the other 90% belongs to the shareholders.
That sounds about right...employee shareholders might even be less.
12. It may be fun to demonize the management but the management of Southwest Airlines Co has kept the company in a position to succeed.
Fun? No. As I said before, this has been anything but fun. I used to look forward to going to work. Now it's just a chore
Most other airlines are not in that position. Layoffs, furloughs, concessions, hiring freezes....those haven't been an issue at Southwest.
I understand all of that. I have not been living under a rock. Again, the majority of the current membership has decided under what circumstances they will work in the service of this company. If we can't come to terms we will either move on or be moved on.
Trying to paint management as the enemy is something for which you shoudl be deeply ashamed of your union leadership.
What's done is done. I doubt Jim Parker is losing sleep over the fact that I may or may not be mad at him. Same goes for being slammed in the press. I assume by the time you ascend to his professional level JP has reached you develop a pretty thick skin. Somehow I think we will survive.
My advice is still this - get yourself a good raise.
That's outta my hands until a TA is on the table. For both NTs are in the driver's seat.
Don't fuss about the piddly stuff.
Such as?
You keep fighting over things that don't matter and ultimately you are going to lose on the issues that do.
See the thing is, it is up to us to decide what matters and noone else.
Southwest has always paid decent money for hard work. In the big scheme of things, that is fair and just. Take the money and run.
The problem is that we have differing views of "decent", "fair", and "just". But I appreciate the advice nonetheless.
One man's greed is another man's fairness.
2. You can;t always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you'll find, you get what you need.
Who is in the best position to decide what I as a flight attendant at SWA need?
3. Lockouts work. See mechanics 1977 (or was it 78?)
I said that word does not scare me and I meant it.
4. If FAs try any "funny stuff" (ie non-strike work actions---CHAOS, sickouts, what-have-you.....Parker WILL lock you out)
We will do what we gotta do...Jim will do what Jim's gotta do.
5. Parker is not the enemy. Herb is the one telling Parker what to do here. If Herb wasn't in favor of this he would have butted in a long time ago and told Parker what to give you. I know Herb. Herb is smart but he doesn't enjoy telling people No. he doesn;t mind having other folks tell you No for him. So, if you are going to demonize Parker, you probably need to demonize Herb too.
Pity Jim didn't take a page out of Herb's book and let someone else do the dirty work.
6. FAs could probably wrangle a healthy (and I do mean healthy) wage increase if they would realize they are not going to get anywhere fighting work rules. Work rules are where WN is able to kick everyone's tail.
Work rules and compensation go hand in hand. Compensate your people fairly and they become much more flexible with the work rules.
7. The economy is on the rebound, so those FAs who throw their livelihoods away "for what is right and just and fair" (gag me with a spoon) ought to be able to find employment elsewhere after the fact.
That's the plan my man. Virgin is coming stateside, jetBlue's 190s are in the pipline, AirTran and Frontier are growing. Just like there are people ready and willing to take my job....there are other airlines ready and willing to put me to work. Unless of course...gasp...I decided to actually leave the industry. There is life after airline work isn't there?
8. We, the fare paying public, are vociferously in favor of the company doing whatever it takes to keep our fares low. And we trust the company's accountant a whole lot more than we do the union's.
Why? Is the company less susceptible to bias as the union?
The union's money folks saying "it will only raise the ASM cost a little bit" is like telling your girlfriend at the drive-in movie, back in high school...that this will only get you a little bit pregnant
You lost me there. I was raised to wait until the wedding night. But I get your point.
In case you havent noticed, there are competing airlines nipping at WN's heels.
Such has been the case since this airlines inception. I am a reasonable person. If the cost pressure of the unions proposals truly put SWA at risk...then Parker need to say so. Don't hem and haw and allude to and hint at...come right out and say it. Take a full page ad in USA Today...you know how we flight attendant like that...laying out exactly what will happen to the this company if the raises we are asking for are implemented. Tell me to my face that the financial intergrity of the company must be protected above all. All of this tap dancing is keeping the company from moving forward and me and ultimately the rest of the membership from getting on with my life whether it is at SWA or elsewhere.
You are a whole lot better being the in charge of your own destiny than having to rely on the kindness of strangers. If you don;t believe me, ask Blanche DuBois or US Airways.
Great Movie, Great Airline. Sad endings for both.
9. The 1st year FA salary doesn;t alarm us because, as KC pointed out, that is entry level type stuff. And a 1st year FA at Southwest makes a lot more than a 1st year FA at any of the so-called majors...because all of their first-year employees are non existent. Let's keep this in perspective, please.
Why would the first year payscale alarm you? You don't have to work under it. The other majors are broke or darn close. Southwest Airlines is not.
10. Me, my wife, my sister in law, and a whole bunch of folks are ready to take entry level wages to get a job where we get passes.
We have 7 more training classes planned this year and we are actively hiring. Come on over. Give me my raise and they can keep their passes. I'll buy my own plane tickets.
I think the salary cut i would take would be more than made up for by the savings....what I spend a year on airplane tickets.
Which means passes mean alot to those who travel alot and don't mean much at all to the homebodies. Which is why the vast majority of us don't consider it part of the compensation package.
Therefore, you should be kind enough to at least take what I say into consideration.
Done.
I pay a healthy chunk of change each year on airplane tickets.
And I give an enormous chunk of my life to Southwest everytime I go to work. You get transportation in exchange for your money you spend. I get a paycheck in exchange for the work that I do. Ultimately, we are both trying to get the best deal.
What the union (specifically, its leadership) has said and done has annoyed me and caused me to feel a great deal of disdain for their demands..both the legitimate and the illegitimate ones.
I'm sorry. I truly am. But noone has ever been annoyed to death....except for maybe Samson. Poor Guy.
You'd have done much better to quit squawking in the media and present the company with a reasonable counterproposal.
The problem is that your view of reasonable and mine are divergent.
Nope...can't do that....it's a whole lot more fun to try to paint Jim Parker as evil incarnate.
Fun? No. The past two years have been anything but fun. See you get to take this up and put and down when ever you sign onto a message board or pick up a newspaper. I don't have that luxury. This has been my life for almost 2 years with no end in sight. But, it's okay. I can take it. I'm a big boy. If anything it has helped me disconnect emotionally from this company. When I came here 8 years ago, I thought I mattered...turns out I'm just an employee number. I can go be an employee number anywhere. Which is why I said and I meant that I can leave here with no qualms and no regrets.
Folks, it ain't working. Your passengers...remember us? The folks who pay your salary? We sort of admire ol' Jim for sticking to his guns in an effort to avoid the sort of ASM cost creep that ate US' lunch.
We carry a whole lotta people are you absolutely sure you speak for all of them? We know where the money comes from. That is why you still get your Diet Coke and a refill on a 28 minute flight. Say what you will about this contract being negotiated in public but one thing we have NEVER done is forgotten the Customer and lowered the level of service. We have come to work and done our jobs and gotten the planes off the gate. Thus far, the most our customer has had to endure is informational picketing and inflammatory statements to press. We have by and large kept this out of the cabin.
11. That being said, we're not against a raise. What we (passengers) don't much care for is any employee group setting themselves up as indispensable.
We never said we were indespensible. Not even the President of the United States is indespensible. That's why he comes with a spare. The truth is that SWA has spent the past 30 some odd years telling us that we are the best in the industry at what we do and we are now asking them to literally put their money where their mouth is.
As important as the employees are to the airline, it doesn;t belong to the employees. It belongs to the shareholders. Granted, 10% of the airline (thru stock) probably does belong to the employees. That means the other 90% belongs to the shareholders.
That sounds about right...employee shareholders might even be less.
12. It may be fun to demonize the management but the management of Southwest Airlines Co has kept the company in a position to succeed.
Fun? No. As I said before, this has been anything but fun. I used to look forward to going to work. Now it's just a chore
Most other airlines are not in that position. Layoffs, furloughs, concessions, hiring freezes....those haven't been an issue at Southwest.
I understand all of that. I have not been living under a rock. Again, the majority of the current membership has decided under what circumstances they will work in the service of this company. If we can't come to terms we will either move on or be moved on.
Trying to paint management as the enemy is something for which you shoudl be deeply ashamed of your union leadership.
What's done is done. I doubt Jim Parker is losing sleep over the fact that I may or may not be mad at him. Same goes for being slammed in the press. I assume by the time you ascend to his professional level JP has reached you develop a pretty thick skin. Somehow I think we will survive.
My advice is still this - get yourself a good raise.
That's outta my hands until a TA is on the table. For both NTs are in the driver's seat.
Don't fuss about the piddly stuff.
Such as?
You keep fighting over things that don't matter and ultimately you are going to lose on the issues that do.
See the thing is, it is up to us to decide what matters and noone else.
Southwest has always paid decent money for hard work. In the big scheme of things, that is fair and just. Take the money and run.
The problem is that we have differing views of "decent", "fair", and "just". But I appreciate the advice nonetheless.
It looks like every time unions get involved and start demanding airlines get into trouble.
A proposal should be voted on. A tentative agreement requires that the union members should have had the opportunity to vote on it and to discuss it among them self and by agreeing on it making it a tentative agreement that can be converted into an agreement.
How well are you of today without a “contract� Are you any worth off than before 9/11?
There are so many people out there who are desperately looking for a job that would get them out of unemployment. Ask them how good you have it and how good the offer is. Just demanding and demanding and demanding is not going to help you, the airline, the passengers and the economy.
We are living in a very different world today. The good old times are over and it is very cold out there. Is there any of the big name airlines where FA’s are happy. And it always the management the unions say. It might be that the unions are promising you greener pastures on the other side, fully aware that there are non and you follow them because you don’t see the green pasture because you are actually standing on them.
Don’t just think of your self. Think of every one @ WN. The FA’s are only one part of the company. And one rotten apple can spoil the complete basket. Once you get what you want every one is going to add to it and trying to top it and at the end WN is going to find it self in the same position like UA/US/AA/DL etc. etc. etc. fighting to survive because the unions don’t realize that there is a time to ask and receive and a time to just be cooperative and let it go or maybe give.
What is more important to you, a secure job or more money and an un-secure job? At the end someone has to pay for it and it might be you because your job has been eliminated!
So think twice what you wish for, you might get it and don’t like it.
There are more people in a company that want more but are realistic enough to know what is good and healthy.
A proposal should be voted on. A tentative agreement requires that the union members should have had the opportunity to vote on it and to discuss it among them self and by agreeing on it making it a tentative agreement that can be converted into an agreement.
How well are you of today without a “contract� Are you any worth off than before 9/11?
There are so many people out there who are desperately looking for a job that would get them out of unemployment. Ask them how good you have it and how good the offer is. Just demanding and demanding and demanding is not going to help you, the airline, the passengers and the economy.
We are living in a very different world today. The good old times are over and it is very cold out there. Is there any of the big name airlines where FA’s are happy. And it always the management the unions say. It might be that the unions are promising you greener pastures on the other side, fully aware that there are non and you follow them because you don’t see the green pasture because you are actually standing on them.
Don’t just think of your self. Think of every one @ WN. The FA’s are only one part of the company. And one rotten apple can spoil the complete basket. Once you get what you want every one is going to add to it and trying to top it and at the end WN is going to find it self in the same position like UA/US/AA/DL etc. etc. etc. fighting to survive because the unions don’t realize that there is a time to ask and receive and a time to just be cooperative and let it go or maybe give.
What is more important to you, a secure job or more money and an un-secure job? At the end someone has to pay for it and it might be you because your job has been eliminated!
So think twice what you wish for, you might get it and don’t like it.
There are more people in a company that want more but are realistic enough to know what is good and healthy.
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