Southwest Cities

[weatherman]

I was curious to see where PVD fell in order of importance to WN. It is #30! For those of you curious about other cities, here are the results in terms of daily departures. Looks like lots of room for continued growth in the east.

PHX 180
LAS 173
BWI 150
HOU 141
MDW 132
DAL 130
OAK 122
LAX 117
BNA 86
SAN 80
MCI 74
SJC 74
STL 74
SAC 72
ABQ 64
MCO 64
MSY 60
ONT 58
TPA 58
BUR 52
SAT 48
AUS 47
RNO 40
ELP 39
SEA 39
SLC 39
FLL 37
PTL 35
BHM 27
PVD 27
SNA 26
TUL 24
ISP 23
OKC 22
CLE 21
SDF 21
JAX 20
MHT 20
RDU 20
BOI 18
DTW 17
BDL 16
CMH 16
GEG 16
LIT 16
LBB 14
MAF 14
OMA 13
TUS 13
HRL 12
IND 12
ORF 12
AMA 11
ALB 10
BUF 10
PBI 10
JAN 9
CRP 6
IAH 6

 

[mga707]

Oh, one other quibble (sorry!)...IND has 16 dailies, not 12.

 

[mga707]

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On 5/4/2003 8:46:20 PM weatherman wrote:

I was curious to see where PVD fell in order of importance to WN. It is #30! For those of you curious about other cities, here are the results in terms of daily departures. Looks like lots of room for continued growth in the east.

PHX 180
LAS 173
BWI 150
HOU 141
MDW 132
DAL 130
OAK 122
LAX 117
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Thanks--I had just done a similar count of the top departure cities based on the April 6 timetable, and the figures on some have changed slightly: PHX is up to 182 (with the resumption of DTW), BWI is now up to 154, while LAX has declined slightly to 114.
The other five 'hundred-plus' airports are the same as you reported.
Interesting to see the whole list--while I knew the top 8, and the 'under 10s' at the bottom, it is interesting to see how the rest rank.
...and I assume by "SAC" you mean SMF. Ditto for "PTL"/PDX.

 

[FrugalFlyer]

I''m surprised to see DTW has only 17 daily departures.
Seems low, at least to me - I was under the impression SW had more flights out of DTW.

 

[mga707]

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On 5/4/2003 1035 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:

I''m surprised to see DTW has only 17 daily departures.
Seems low, at least to me - I was under the impression SW had more flights out of DTW.
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9 MDW, 3 BNA, 3 STL, 2 PHX--17 daily (weekday) departures.
There is a Sat only MCO.

 

[weatherman]

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On 5/4/2003 10:05:20 PM mga707 wrote:

Thanks--I had just done a similar count of the top departure cities based on the April 6 timetable, and the figures on some have changed slightly: PHX is up to 182 (with the resumption of DTW), BWI is now up to 154, while LAX has declined slightly to 114.
The other five ''hundred-plus'' airports are the same as you reported.
Interesting to see the whole list--while I knew the top 8, and the ''under 10s'' at the bottom, it is interesting to see how the rest rank.
...and I assume by "SAC" you mean SMF. Ditto for "PTL"/PDX.


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Sorry for the misprints. You are correct!

 

[FrugalFlyer]

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On 5/5/2003 1204 AM mga707 wrote:
9 MDW, 3 BNA, 3 STL, 2 PHX--17 daily (weekday) departures.
There is a Sat only MCO.
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I''m a little curious as to why SW doesn''t serve more destinations from DTW. For example DTW-BWI. Or, more interestingly, why is there no DTW-CLE service on SW? Are they scared of NW/CO? DTW-CLE sort of fits the typical SW city profile. The cities are close enough for people to drive (I-75/I-80; ~2.5 hrs) but with SW in the market I think more may opt to fly. Right now, I think NW has approx. 8 daily DTW-CLE departures (half of them mainline DC-9s). Is there room/market for SW on this route?

 

[Cosmo]

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On 5/5/2003 1204 AM mga707 wrote:

9 MDW, 3 BNA, 3 STL, 2 PHX--17 daily (weekday) departures.
There is a Sat only MCO.
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I continue to be amazed that Southwest has not started nonstops from DTW to BWI. I would think that they could easily make at least three daily nonstop round trips work in that market, which is a Northwest monopoly.

 

[lownslow]

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On 5/4/2003 1035 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:


I''m surprised to see DTW has only 17 daily departures.

Seems low, at least to me - I was under the impression SW had more flights out of DTW.

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WN''s service out of Detroit is somewhat useless if you live here and want to go to many places on the eastern seaboard. Pretty much any flights you can build require a connection in MDW or STL, and become serious treks in terms of extra distance and time. My most common destinations flying out of DTW are Dallas, Houston, Washington DC, and Providence. You''d think WN would be a good option, but for these cases, I can rarely find prices and times which are competitive. Perhaps when the new terminal is completed at Detroit WN will improve its service. However, that wasn''t planned until 2006 or 2007 as a completion date, and DTW has not yet borrowed any money to begin construction of the new terminal. Even if they complete it as planned, however, there will be precious little gate space available - 29 gates, compared to the 38 currently available for Air Canada, AA, AE, HP, DL, WN, Spirit, UA, US, Comair, ASA, UE, and USAirways Express (though DL may relocate to the McNamara Terminal)... 29 is still an improvement over what had been available - 25 gates used to be avavailable, yet this has increased by 13 with reallocation of the remainder of C concourse to the other airlines. (assuming these gates are available as the website claims)

 

[FrugalFlyer]

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On 5/5/2003 1:06:53 PM lownslow wrote:
WN''s service out of Detroit is somewhat useless if you live here and want to go to many places on the eastern seaboard. Pretty much any flights you can build require a connection in MDW or STL, and become serious treks in terms of extra distance and time. My most common destinations flying out of DTW are Dallas, Houston, Washington DC, and Providence. You''d think WN would be a good option, but for these cases, I can rarely find prices and times which are competitive. Perhaps when the new terminal is completed at Detroit WN will improve its service. However, that wasn''t planned until 2006 or 2007 as a completion date, and DTW has not yet borrowed any money to begin construction of the new terminal. Even if they complete it as planned, however, there will be precious little gate space available - 29 gates, compared to the 38 currently available for Air Canada, AA, AE, HP, DL, WN, Spirit, UA, US, Comair, ASA, UE, and USAirways Express (though DL may relocate to the McNamara Terminal)... 29 is still an improvement over what had been available - 25 gates used to be avavailable, yet this has increased by 13 with reallocation of the remainder of C concourse to the other airlines. (assuming these gates are available as the website claims)
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What is the chance of SW returning to Detroit City aiport instead of serving DTW? When SW started service to Detroit it was out of the Detroit City airport. What is/are the reasons SW moved to Metro from City. Is moving from Detroit-Metro to Detroit-City a viable option? What is the condition of the Detroit City airport? I don''t even know if its still there (operational)?

 

[lownslow]

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On 5/5/2003 1:18:49 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:

What is the chance of SW returning to Detroit City aiport instead of serving DTW? When SW started service to Detroit it was out of the Detroit City airport. What is/are the reasons SW moved to Metro from City. Is moving from Detroit-Metro to Detroit-City a viable option? What is the condition of the Detroit City airport? I don''t even know if its still there (operational)?

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Detroit City Airport is still there. It was most recently served by ProAir from 1997-2000, before the FAA revoked ProAir''s operating certificate (only to later rescind its revokation in exchange for ProAir''s dropping legal action against the FAA). Near their peak, ProAir operated nearly the same level of service as Southwest did prior to ending service there (~250,000 annual enplanements).

The terminal at City was recently "renovated" for ProAir, although this should not be taken to mean an extensive renovation. The runways have also been resurfaced, but these are still one of the major negatives of the airport. These negatives are:

1) Extreme local opposition to use of the airport (wealthy neighborhoods protesting increase in noise)

2) Limited runway useability - there are 2 runways available. 15/33 has a takeoff length of 5501 ft, and landing limit of 5090 ft. 7/25 provides only 4025 ft. Furthermore, 7/25 has a weight limit of 12500 lbs on single wheel (no listing for double). 15/33 provides 75000 on single, 135000 on double wheel config. So basically you would have just one useable runway, which also happens to be rather short. Contrast this to DTW, with its 6 useable runways (once 3L/21R is rebuilt)... unless you can capture a lot more market share by moving, there''s just no need... you''d be much better off pressuring for an expansion of the planned reconstructed north terminal (smith/davey) at DTW.

 

[N905AW]

Hopefully with America West''s closure of their Columbus hub operations, CMH will move up a few spaces on the list. The opportunity definitely exists for Southwest to add service, especially to Baltimore. America West flew the CMH-BWI route with 250 seats daily. The flights went out full almost daily, and mainly with local passengers. The opportunity also exists for Southwest to ramp up service to Florida, add a frequency to MDW, and fly between CMH-LAX, which was recently discontinued by America West, and is the city of Columbus'' top priority in terms of restoring air service. Considering Southwest''s large presence in MCI, no competition on the CMH-MCI route, as well as the connecting opportunities available and the O&D between the two cities, I''m sure SWA could fly twice daily between Columbus and Kansas City.

 

[mga707]

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On 5/5/2003 4:16:52 PM lownslow wrote:

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On 5/5/2003 1:18:49 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:

1) Extreme local opposition to use of the airport (wealthy neighborhoods protesting increase in noise)

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I''m confused...wealthy neighborhoods? I''d heard that the neighborhoods surrounding DET made the, er, diverse neighborhoods around MDW look like Grosse Pointe
Indeed, that is/was one of the negative factors about Detroit City Airport--that too many timid suburbanites from north of Eight Mile are/were afraid to venture into the urban Detroit jungle to use it...

 

[FrugalFlyer]

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On 5/5/2003 7:08:52 PM mga707 wrote:
I''m confused...wealthy neighborhoods? I''d heard that the neighborhoods surrounding DET made the, er, diverse neighborhoods around MDW look like Grosse Pointe

Indeed, that is/was one of the negative factors about Detroit City Airport--that too many timid suburbanites from north of Eight Mile are/were afraid to venture into the urban Detroit jungle to use it...
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If you''re coming to the airport from the Great White North, the city of DET (and heck even Romulus/DTW) are an ''interesting'' experience. Once there was construction / detours to I-75/I-94 from the Ambassador Bridge. Somehow we made a wrong turn or missed a sign, and lets just say that our Canadian mini-van was quite striking sight in a neighbourhood of burned and boarded up houses with cars on blocks in the front lawn.

Another interesting item about DET, maybe the SW pilots could answer this. Isn''t there a cemetary at the end of one of the runways? Didn''t this make some interesting take-offs and landings?

 

[lownslow]

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On 5/5/2003 7:08:52 PM mga707 wrote:

I''m confused...wealthy neighborhoods? I''d heard that the neighborhoods surrounding DET made the, er, diverse neighborhoods around MDW look like Grosse Pointe

Indeed, that is/was one of the negative factors about Detroit City Airport--that too many timid suburbanites from north of Eight Mile are/were afraid to venture into the urban Detroit jungle to use it...

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That''s the rub - the approach/departure path for 15/33 goes right over/next to Grosse Pointe. The end of this runway is only ~2.5 miles from the heart of Grosse Pointe. The alternate runway, if it could handle traffic, is more parallel to these neighborhoods, but does aim directly at Grosse Pointe Woods. Detroit is truly a city where crossing a railroad track can mean an enormous change in terms of the setting. Frankly, Romulus isn''t much nicer than the neighborhoods immediately surrounding DET...