STL''s Influence

L1011Ret

Veteran
Oct 31, 2002
1,326
0
Though only a bystander with contact with many TWA F/As, I agree wholeheartedly with Mark. If APFA wanted this to pass, they needed to get something to make it pass. As it is obvious that all TWA flight attendants will soon be furloughed, and they have been treated with hostility and near contempt by APFA, several thousand votes are obvious no's. I think Mark is right about the 90% but I would guess even higher. APFA BOD has repeatedly thrown out the TWA LLC representatives lately, asked AA to eliminate furlough pay which affects the TWA F/As the most, did not ask to extend recall rights, and a few other little things they could done that would have gone a long way towards getting the contract ratified. Even if it is ratified there is going to be a court challenge. To my mind this is a sad day for AA and a lot of employees.

I see by other posts from nAAtive F/As, there is thinking to recall J. Ward. Should have been done a long time ago and perhaps APFA would not be in such a pickle.

It is also posted on other boards that AA supervisors are meeting flights with flyers suggesting all vote because several thousand did not. As Mark notes you can also change your vote.
 

kirkpatrick

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
1,345
212
Long Island, NY
Well, the votes are counted and it''s 51.4% NO. I haven''t seen a breakdown for the different bases but I''d be willing to bet STL was 90% no. So it''s a pretty sure bet that if STL flight attendants had voted in the same proportions as the other bases it would have passed.

So why should STL be any different? Just look at where we are on the to be furloughed list. We''re goners no matter what. So what would it have taken to carry STL?

Not much. We at TWA are experts at giving concessions. We did it for 15 years. But it was handled much differently. I recall a mood of cooperation between unions and management in the ''92 bankruptcy which I haven''t seen here. We gave up a lot, but we gained no cost and low cost items, such as our beloved trading flexibility, in exchange for the sacrifices we made. But it didn''t work that way here. If the union and management wanted the concessionary package to pass, you''d think they would have at least thrown us a few crumbs.

Taking away furlough pay was the main slap in the face for those of us at STL. Failure to extend recall rights was next, and something like passes for furloughees (I believe the pilots got this) would have gone a long way toward making the package look more palatable. Talk about bad business sense! If you wanted it to pass, why was it made to look so insulting?

I''ll be changing my vote tomorrow.

Vote NO!

MK
 
Aug 20, 2002
10,151
687
www.usaviation.com
Kirkpatrick;

You are SO right.
STL will probably be the difference that this (re-vote) ABOMINATION gets shot down, by an EVEN BIGGER margin !!!

If for no other reason that for PRINCIPLE,
1. Thanks for changing your vote to NO
2. Plz. get on the horn, and convince as many as possible to vote no,
BECAUSE,
AA, AND APFA leadership,(by their actions)("we did,nt get the result we wanted") have just DISRESPECTED you, and your fellow "majority voters", by issueing a re-vote.

Do everything in your power, to see that this ABSOLUTE INJUSTICE, will NOT be allowed !!!!!!!

GOD BLESS APFA(The one and only REAL UNION,on the property)

Regards,
NH/BB''s
 

flydcoop

Senior
Dec 3, 2002
281
0
St. Louis
F/A Mikey,

You were pretty high up on the "Yes" pole 1-1/2 wks ago. I take it from your recent posts that you 180''d like me?

Coop
 

desertfox

Advanced
Sep 13, 2002
210
0
Vote no and kiss thousands of jobs in all departments away forever...figure on STL becoming a skeleton of it''s current self, as well as MCI, AFW, and dozens of outstations and vendors. There will be virtually no chance for recall opportunities in a BK filing and plan on getting a letter from PBGC that says your pension has just been cut at least in half.

A yes vote is a chance to fight again another day.
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
301
miami
goldwatermiller08.com
Absolutely, I am thoroughly disgusted by the treatment of the company, in the "so called negotiations."

We will secure a more realistic rational contract through mandated monitored negotiations in BK court. We will until that time work under our current rules and at current rates of pay. While so many other will be relegated to the lower rates.

Had AA made a fair and honest deal to begin with. This would already be settled. Everyone knows cuts are necessary. We accept that. Just be fair and honest with us. Is that so much to ask? With AA I think it is.
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
301
miami
goldwatermiller08.com
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On 4/15/2003 9:54:34 PM desertfox wrote:

Vote no and kiss thousands of jobs in all departments away forever...figure on STL becoming a skeleton of it''s current self, as well as MCI, AFW, and dozens of outstations and vendors. There will be virtually no chance for recall opportunities in a BK filing and plan on getting a letter from PBGC that says your pension has just been cut at least in half.

A yes vote is a chance to fight again another day.



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BK will come no matter what. APFA will negotiate with AA from our current level. We will force the issue and get a true and clear valuation on each item from the contract. If we give 420 million in BK it will be a true 420. Today we were asked to agree to a 420 million TA that the company calls 320.

The only way the pension is cut in 1/2 is if we agree to it. We are under the limit for maximum payout. Anyone who has a vested pension is safe from having AA unilaterally take it away.

A yes vote is a chance to negotiate from a weakened position in BK court. Where we will end up one way or another. Like Ernst and Young have said. AA may not have the funds to continue outside of court.

A no vote means we negotiate from our current levels while the others negotiate for further cuts from those they already agreed to. What''s sad is there is no way to undo those cuts, or get credit for the true values that the APA and TWU already agreed too.
 

flydcoop

Senior
Dec 3, 2002
281
0
St. Louis
STL exemplifies "No FeAAr" more than our BOD.

Can''t always say we''ve agreed but damn, I respect you (more than our BOD)!!

I''m furloughed either way, it''s about the principle and dignity.

You always said we could learn a lot from you!!! You are right!

Sherry Cooper has more respect from me than John Ward right now.

Best to us all,

Coop
 

Guest
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On 4/15/2003 7:51:44 PM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:

Kirkpatrick;

You are SO right.
STL will probably be the difference that this (re-vote) ABOMINATION gets shot down, by an EVEN BIGGER margin !!!

If for no other reason that for PRINCIPLE,
1. Thanks for changing your vote to NO
2. Plz. get on the horn, and convince as many as possible to vote no,
BECAUSE,
AA, AND APFA leadership,(by their actions)("we did,nt get the result we wanted") have just DISRESPECTED you, and your fellow "majority voters", by issueing a re-vote.

Do everything in your power, to see that this ABSOLUTE INJUSTICE, will NOT be allowed !!!!!!!

GOD BLESS APFA(The one and only REAL UNION,on the property)

Regards,
NH/BB''s

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Let me get this straight. You are only a real union if you attempt to take your company into BK. The APFA is giving their members the same thing the TWU and APA gave theis now. (The option to change their vote based on the new language) They were not given that option before.

And i recall a post you made earlier NH Blackbears that said do not tell me how to vote. Than why is it ok for you to ask APFA members to change their vote to no.
 
Aug 20, 2002
10,151
687
www.usaviation.com
A77IGW;
MY COMPLAINT "IS" THAT CARTY & COMPANY WOULD HAVE "NEVER" AGREED TO A RE-VOTE, IF THE 1ST VOTE WAS "YES" !!!!!!!!

YOU KNOW IT, AND I KNOW IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DON''T YOU "EVEN" DARE TRY TO INSULT MY INTELLIGENCE, BY SUGGESTING OTHERWISE.

NH/BB''s
 
Aug 20, 2002
1,423
90
Valhalla
www.usaviation.com
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On 4/16/2003 8:25:18 AM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:

A77IGW;
MY COMPLAINT "IS" THAT CARTY & COMPANY WOULD HAVE "NEVER" AGREED TO A RE-VOTE, IF THE 1ST VOTE WAS "YES" !!!!!!!!

NH/BB''s

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Wouldn''t you try everything within your power to avoid slipping off the edge into the abyss?

Obviously you don''t consider BK such a bad option.

You should be anxious that your treasured union seniority will get trashed by the judge.
 

skivoodoo

Member
Sep 7, 2002
36
0
www.usaviation.com
Desertfox,

STL is gone either way. ALL the APFA and AA had to do was extend recall rights, extend passes for those furloughed and NOT eliminate the furlough pay. These were all decided in the 12th hour of negotiations and John Ward personally offered the STL f/a''s on a platter to Carty. And hell yes it makes me proud that we were able to stand up to John Ward and tell him we''re DONE BEING MESSED WITH! He''s crossed the line with this re-vote.

So, Mikey...

Who do you think should be the next president of APFA. Seriously! Give us some background on the 5 chairs that voted No to the revote.
 
Aug 20, 2002
10,151
687
www.usaviation.com
----------------
On 4/16/2003 8:48:52 AM whatkindoffreshhell wrote:

----------------
On 4/16/2003 8:25:18 AM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:

A77IGW;
MY COMPLAINT "IS" THAT CARTY & COMPANY WOULD HAVE "NEVER" AGREED TO A RE-VOTE, IF THE 1ST VOTE WAS "YES" !!!!!!!!

NH/BB''s

----------------​

Wouldn''t you try everything within your power to avoid slipping off the edge into the abyss?

Obviously you don''t consider BK such a bad option.

You should be anxious that your treasured union seniority will get trashed by the judge.


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GO TO YOUR NEAREST LIBRARY, USE THE "BIGGEST WEBSTERS" THAT THEY HAVE, AND "G-Dammit" LOOK UP THE FRIGGIN" word
"PRINCIPLE" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While your there, see if they have any books on "RIGGED ELECTIONS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB''s