StonewAAlled

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

StonewAAlled again.

I have been trying to get TAA (federal funds to retrain laid off American workers) benefits for Fleet Service at the TULE maintenance base. The company saw fit to provide TAA for AA and RELATED employees (translation CONTRACT HELP). I know this for a fact because Accounting Principles is listed. I used to work for Accounting Principles. They are a temporary (or staffing, whatever name you prefer) service that specializes in accounting. So temporary employees can get TAA and Fleet Service can not? What a crock.

What I want to know is how mechanics are receiving TAA and Fleet Service (who worked side by side with the mechanics every day mind you) were left out. I don't begrudge the mechanics for getting TAA. I am happy they were offered it. I just feel Fleet Service should have been offered it to.

This is an E-Mail I received today from a state employee. I withheld the name for the employees privacy.


I know there have been some additional calls from American Airlines workers inquiring about TRA/TAA benefits, resulting in a little confusion and frustration. I spoke with a Senior Attorney at American this afternoon and got some clarification. I am passing a long what I’ve learned. Hopefully it will help if there are more calls that come in.

What I learned….

The certification covers AA’s Maintenance and Related employees. For example, at the beginning of the petition it reads AMERICAN AIRLINES TULSA INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE AND RELATED; and in the body of the certification it notes that these employees provide maintenance services for passenger aircraft. The Aircraft Maintenance & Related is a worker group at American that includes different types of mechanics, including employees associated with the main base visit maintenance check for the 777. That check of the 777 will be handled overseas and that is the reason that DOL has considered that group of workers trade impacted. Fleet Service employees do not fall into that worker group and their jobs are not considered trade impacted at this time.

I know of one claimant that has contacted about 4 different people today. I am forwarding this information to him and letting him know that if he feels he should be covered he would need to file a new petition with the DOL.

I have contacted Randy Mcdonald (VP 514). He was very helpful with providing information on the TAA classes. He told me ALL American Airlines employees could sign up for TAA. I told him that I had already talked to the state several times that week and had been told differently. His response was TWU just had a meeting the day before I called him. I figured maybe we were being added and perhaps the information the state had was slightly behind (TAA is federal) so I decided to give it a couple of days. No such luck. Randy said he had turned it over to Sam Cirri. I am going to go ahead and send the federal petition I have been working on. Hopefully 514 can expedite the process. I want to be very clear. TWU filed this on the workers behalf to help us get retrained. The company is the one that provides the federal government the eligibility lists. The Company is the one responsible for leaving Fleet Service out cold.


This shows just how petty AA really is. They will support their temps before they will their own employees.

 

[Bob Owens]

What it comes down to is if they outsource your job to a foreigner in a foreign country you are eligible, but if they outsource your job to a foreigner in this country, you are not.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Well Mr. Owens please note I worked at the maintenance base, not the airport. Fleet Service did in fact do a lot of labor on the 777 in a maintenance capacity. It was a very large ordeal to change all the upholstery and all the rugs. Rugs on the 777 in particular were quite time consuming because of the first class "pods" and just the sheer number of rugs in total. It even took a while to restock the aircraft (lavatory supplies, galley supplies, literature, first aid kits). Not to mention the cleaning aspect (as you might imagine it is time consuming to do high level cleaning on an airframe that large). I am not even taking into consideration the "prep" time to get all those supplies organized and gathered. We were indeed impacted by the outsourcing of the 777 yet we are the only work group denied retraining. Why is that?

I only wish for the opportunity for people in Fleet Service to gain a skill to be a productive citizen of society and earn a livable wage. Helping people obtain education is a smart investment on the governments part as it provides for improved future earning potential for the individual being assisted (thereby increasing taxable income to recover cost and then some). It is also a good way to shore up deficiencies in the number of qualified people for certain job sectors. It is one of the few government programs that offers a return on the investment.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well, start a petition to "Mountain Jim" or one of them other whack-a-do's you people keep electing and I'll sign on. Maybe they figured that if you never invested in a skill prior to them shipping your jobs out from under you no foul -no pay. I think that the government should invest in its citizens and make education and training a priority but I get called names for thinking that way.

Good luck!

 

[Crapdog]

I have a novel idea.....GO TO WORK FOR THE COMPANY THAT IS NOW HANDLING THE BAGGAGE AND AIRCRAFT MOVEMENT. It's kinda like dumping the TWU and working for yourself.........hmm?....

 

[Vortilon]

StonewAAlled again.

I have been trying to get TAA (federal funds to retrain laid off American workers) benefits for Fleet Service at the TULE maintenance base. The company saw fit to provide TAA for AA and RELATED employees (translation CONTRACT HELP). I know this for a fact because Accounting Principles is listed. I used to work for Accounting Principles. They are a temporary (or staffing, whatever name you prefer) service that specializes in accounting. So temporary employees can get TAA and Fleet Service can not? What a crock.

What I want to know is how mechanics are receiving TAA and Fleet Service (who worked side by side with the mechanics every day mind you) were left out. I don't begrudge the mechanics for getting TAA. I am happy they were offered it. I just feel Fleet Service should have been offered it to.

This is an E-Mail I received today from a state employee. I withheld the name for the employees privacy.


I know there have been some additional calls from American Airlines workers inquiring about TRA/TAA benefits, resulting in a little confusion and frustration. I spoke with a Senior Attorney at American this afternoon and got some clarification. I am passing a long what I’ve learned. Hopefully it will help if there are more calls that come in.

What I learned….

The certification covers AA’s Maintenance and Related employees. For example, at the beginning of the petition it reads AMERICAN AIRLINES TULSA INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE AND RELATED; and in the body of the certification it notes that these employees provide maintenance services for passenger aircraft. The Aircraft Maintenance & Related is a worker group at American that includes different types of mechanics, including employees associated with the main base visit maintenance check for the 777. That check of the 777 will be handled overseas and that is the reason that DOL has considered that group of workers trade impacted. Fleet Service employees do not fall into that worker group and their jobs are not considered trade impacted at this time.

I know of one claimant that has contacted about 4 different people today. I am forwarding this information to him and letting him know that if he feels he should be covered he would need to file a new petition with the DOL.

I have contacted Randy Mcdonald (VP 514). He was very helpful with providing information on the TAA classes. He told me ALL American Airlines employees could sign up for TAA. I told him that I had already talked to the state several times that week and had been told differently. His response was TWU just had a meeting the day before I called him. I figured maybe we were being added and perhaps the information the state had was slightly behind (TAA is federal) so I decided to give it a couple of days. No such luck. Randy said he had turned it over to Sam Cirri. I am going to go ahead and send the federal petition I have been working on. Hopefully 514 can expedite the process. I want to be very clear. TWU filed this on the workers behalf to help us get retrained. The company is the one that provides the federal government the eligibility lists. The Company is the one responsible for leaving Fleet Service out cold.


This shows just how petty AA really is. They will support their temps before they will their own employees.



I have a question. Just what kind of training did you have to have, to be hired at AA as a baggage handler? Now you want to be retrained on someone else's dime. This is the same BS that has pissed me off with the system at AA. Here I was paying off student loans, and the TWU along with AA is offering baggage handlers free AMT training, and giving them jobs in maintenance with no loss of pay - hence the $19.00ph junior mech. Meanwhile, there is some guy out on the street that actually has a mechanical aptitude, paid for school on his own, or learned in the service. That program ONLY helped baggage handlers - how was that fair?

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't see anything wrong with that program, sure, why not encourage people to get a skill, but what I didn't like was encouraging them to get a skill then doing everything you can to destroy it with SRPs, outsourcing R&D and Deicing etc. Why encourage more to get the skills and then turn around and decrease demand for the skills?

 

[Vortilon]

I don't see anything wrong with that program, sure, why not encourage people to get a skill, but what I didn't like was encouraging them to get a skill then doing everything you can to destroy it with SRPs, outsourcing R&D and Deicing etc. Why encourage more to get the skills and then turn around and decrease demand for the skills?

The program would be fine if it something similar was offered to all - some sort of tuition reimbursement. In this case it was not.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I think we can agree that the upgrade program for career stock clerks, fleet service clerks and cleaners was a complete sham and should have never happened. All this did was give some the oppportunity to get a job that they never had any intention of doing because of the cost and length of time for certification. And the carreer cleaners carrying their occupational seniority with them so they could outbid long time AMTs for crew chief and inspector bids was pathetic. The honest truth is that there is no skill associated with being a fleet service clerk and there is no kind of certification required for this job. But, if there are federal programs availabe then they ought to be identified and offered to our fleet service. But keep in mind the rest of us in the AMT profession paid for our licenses. I for one spent four years in the Air Force as a Jet Engine mechanic before spending 17 months in A&P school. Others spent the time and money in school then had to work for barely more than minimum wage to get their experience. I do not post this to offend anyone but to just clearify the facts. Many in other job titles consider their job to be on par with an AMT. They are not.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Well, start a petition to "Mountain Jim" or one of them other whack-a-do's you people keep electing and I'll sign on. Maybe they figured that if you never invested in a skill prior to them shipping your jobs out from under you no foul -no pay. I think that the government should invest in its citizens and make education and training a priority but I get called names for thinking that way.
Good luck!

I already started a federal petition. Also note we had people in Fleet Service that have A&P's. An investment was made but job uncertainty kept some people from transferring to title one due to seniority and economic issues.

I have a novel idea.....GO TO WORK FOR THE COMPANY THAT IS NOW HANDLING THE BAGGAGE AND AIRCRAFT MOVEMENT. It's kinda like dumping the TWU and working for yourself.........hmm?....

I might consider that for a short term? However, as a long term solution why would I join a company that has no future? Also, agreeing to work awful hours, weekends, holidays, in inclimate weather in a high injury rate job for low pay and no benefits is not like working for yourself.

I have a question. Just what kind of training did you have to have, to be hired at AA as a baggage handler? Now you want to be retrained on someone else's dime. This is the same BS that has pissed me off with the system at AA. Here I was paying off student loans, and the TWU along with AA is offering baggage handlers free AMT training, and giving them jobs in maintenance with no loss of pay - hence the $19.00ph junior mech. Meanwhile, there is some guy out on the street that actually has a mechanical aptitude, paid for school on his own, or learned in the service. That program ONLY helped baggage handlers - how was that fair?

Someone else's dime? Some of those dimes are mine. You act like I do not pay taxes. I have been gainfully employed for nineteen years. By that logic why should I have to pay to retrain mechanics just because their life choices did not pan out? So I can send other people to school with my taxes but I can't go myself? Not that I mind the investment to retrain mechanics, I am just showing you the flaw with your logic. As for the fair question I don't understand. Are you asking me if it is fair for AMR to invest in its long term current employees over someone off the street? Or are you asking me if it is fair that they got an opportunity for free that you had to pay for?

As for being skilled, when I started American Airlines I had an electrical background (school and work history). My intention was to start in Fleet Service and eventually transfer to title two. I had my probation extended (it was doubled to 1 year) due to absences from illness so was not eligible to transfer out until Oct 2001. I think you know what happened after that. After I had a few years in Fleet and the economy went south I never transfered out because of future job uncertainty. You would be surprised how many Fleet Service we have with A&P's that got caught up in that same storm. They did not hire into Fleet with intentions of being "lifers". Even if some did so what? Fleet was a good paying job with good benefits. Are they supposed to turn down a good job with benefits because it does not require a degree? Would you do that?

I think we can agree that the upgrade program for career stock clerks, fleet service clerks and cleaners was a complete sham and should have never happened. All this did was give some the opportunity to get a job that they never had any intention of doing because of the cost and length of time for certification. And the carreer cleaners carrying their occupational seniority with them so they could outbid long time AMTs for crew chief and inspector bids was pathetic. The honest truth is that there is no skill associated with being a fleet service clerk and there is no kind of certification required for this job. But, if there are federal programs availabe then they ought to be identified and offered to our fleet service. But keep in mind the rest of us in the AMT profession paid for our licenses. I for one spent four years in the Air Force as a Jet Engine mechanic before spending 17 months in A&P school. Others spent the time and money in school then had to work for barely more than minimum wage to get their experience. I do not post this to offend anyone but to just clearify the facts. Many in other job titles consider their job to be on par with an AMT. They are not.

Fleet Service personnel were NEVER allowed to transfer to AMT with full seniority at TULE. Since you said cleaners (they call us cleaners at TULE also) perhaps you were referring to Aircraft Cleaners. I agree with you. Aircraft Cleaners should not be able to bid on crew chief and inspector positions with no history of installation or maintenance (they have the license but no experience).They are clearly not qualified. That is a bad idea at best, if not outright dangerous.

On the subject of certification. Certification does not make a skilled mechanic. A mechanic can be certified and still be a horrible mechanic. Being able to repeat what you read in a book or pass a hands on test you have been prepped for is one thing. Actually trouble shooting and practicing your trade with skill is quite another. I will agree that the schooling does provide a good foundation. If your schooling experience was like mine however, you use about 20 percent of what they actually required you to learn. Your certification is just a license to learn (which is why putting a licensed but no experience aircraft cleaner in a crew chief slot or inspection is just unsafe). It is your experience that makes you valuable. Would you trust someone fresh out of school to work on an aircraft unsupervised?

On a side note:

Why do people keep saying TWU is attacking the A&P profession? TWU did not attack your profession, at least not directly. Your profession was attacked by cheap overseas labor, H-1B Visas, illegal immigration, and liberal government (which TWU funds by the way, thats the not directly part I mentioned before) that rather look after everyone's interest BUT their citizens. UNIONS claim to be for the American worker yet they fund these liberal terrorist that attack the very things UNION members are paying dues to protect. That is why American Airlines needs an American Airlines employees only UNION.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Fleet Service personnel were NEVER allowed to transfer to AMT with full seniority at TULE. Since you said cleaners (they call us cleaners at TULE also) perhaps you were referring to Aircraft Cleaners. I agree with you. Aircraft Cleaners should not be able to bid on crew chief and inspector positions with no history of installation or maintenance (they have the license but no experience).They are clearly not qualified. That is a bad idea at best, if not outright dangerous.

On the subject of certification. Certification does not make a skilled mechanic. A mechanic can be certified and still be a horrible mechanic. Being able to repeat what you read in a book or pass a hands on test you have been prepped for is one thing. Actually trouble shooting and practicing your trade with skill is quite another. I will agree that the schooling does provide a good foundation. If your schooling experience was like mine however, you use about 20 percent of what they actually required you to learn. Your certification is just a license to learn (which is why putting a licensed but no experience aircraft cleaner in a crew chief slot or inspection is just unsafe). It is your experience that makes you valuable. Would you trust someone fresh out of school to work on an aircraft unsupervised?

On a side note:

Why do people keep saying TWU is attacking the A&P profession? TWU did not attack your profession, at least not directly. Your profession was attacked by cheap overseas labor, H-1B Visas, illegal immigration, and liberal government (which TWU funds by the way, thats the not directly part I mentioned before) that rather look after everyone's interest BUT their citizens. UNIONS claim to be for the American worker yet they fund these liberal terrorist that attack the very things UNION members are paying dues to protect. That is why American Airlines needs an American Airlines employees only UNION.

American Airlines or any other airline will not hire an A&P with no experience. You get that either in the military or at some small airport working for minimum wage. You are stretching it when you try to say that covering seats and laying carpet in a 777 is performing "maintenance" on an aircraft. And back in the day when fleet far out numbered AMTs it didn't matter how much more the other airlines paid their AMTs. Fleet demanded the same raises even though they were the highest paid in the industry. This made it impossible for us to keep up with what the other airlines were paying and they got way ahead of us. In 2001 AA had no choice but to raise our pay but TWU made sure the AMTs paid much more in give backs than either fleet or stores. But the fleet service and stores at AA have never cared about how their pay compared to the rest of the industry. They just saw what an AMT was making and wanted that. Now you have more benefits than AMTs. I'm sorry but I never heard nor saw on this board any fleet or stores outraged at the fact that AMTs had inferior benefits than them and the TWU refusing to get them for us. Your idea of unionism seems to be slanted. But as Forrest Gump said, that's all I got to say about that.

 

[AANOTOK]

American Airlines or any other airline will not hire an A&P with no experience. You get that either in the military or at some small airport working for minimum wage. You are stretching it when you try to say that covering seats and laying carpet in a 777 is performing "maintenance" on an aircraft. And back in the day when fleet far out numbered AMTs it didn't matter how much more the other airlines paid their AMTs. Fleet demanded the same raises even though they were the highest paid in the industry. This made it impossible for us to keep up with what the other airlines were paying and they got way ahead of us. In 2001 AA had no choice but to raise our pay but TWU made sure the AMTs paid much more in give backs than either fleet or stores. But the fleet service and stores at AA have never cared about how their pay compared to the rest of the industry. They just saw what an AMT was making and wanted that. Now you have more benefits than AMTs. I'm sorry but I never heard nor saw on this board any fleet or stores outraged at the fact that AMTs had inferior benefits than them and the TWU refusing to get them for us. Your idea of unionism seems to be slanted. But as Forrest Gump said, that's all I got to say about that.

Here we go....it was just a matter of time!

 

[Kev3188]

American Airlines or any other airline will not hire an A&P with no experience. You get that either in the military or at some small airport working for minimum wage. You are stretching it when you try to say that covering seats and laying carpet in a 777 is performing "maintenance" on an aircraft. And back in the day when fleet far out numbered AMTs it didn't matter how much more the other airlines paid their AMTs. Fleet demanded the same raises even though they were the highest paid in the industry. This made it impossible for us to keep up with what the other airlines were paying and they got way ahead of us. In 2001 AA had no choice but to raise our pay but TWU made sure the AMTs paid much more in give backs than either fleet or stores. But the fleet service and stores at AA have never cared about how their pay compared to the rest of the industry. They just saw what an AMT was making and wanted that. Now you have more benefits than AMTs. I'm sorry but I never heard nor saw on this board any fleet or stores outraged at the fact that AMTs had inferior benefits than them and the TWU refusing to get them for us. Your idea of unionism seems to be slanted. But as Forrest Gump said, that's all I got to say about that.

Way to play into the divide and conquer strategy. I'm sure the company is appreciative of your carrying their water for them.

 

[screwed again]

You got it,here we go again. It's those overpaid, untrained bag-monkeys fault. I've heard this same horse puckey for well over 20 years.

 

[AANOTOK]

C'mon screwed again, at least give us the decency of being a coattail riding, unskilled, overpaid "bag smasher". A "bag-monkey" is a touch harsh.

Kev- It's been that way here at AA for the thirty years I have been here. Nothing new.
From "some" pilots and "some" mechanics, fleet has had a to crawl out from under that big yellow bus on a few occasions.