SWAPA Prepares for possible strike

WorldTraveler

Corn Field
Dec 5, 2003
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no one ever said otherwise.

not sure who you are directing your comment to, but since my post is right above yours, what I did say is that the reasons for the perceived lack of support from Washington has very little to do with the party in the White House and much more to do with the economic reasons for why Washington is now bowing to labor's agenda.

Airline employees over the past 5 years have fared far better than their peers in the rest of American industry. I am fully aware that airline employees also paid a much higher price than their peers in other industries post 9/11 but there were no provisions then for snapback provisions and the labor environment does not require them.

further, WN employees suffered relatively little compared to their peers at other carriers post 9/11.

The notion that WN employees will find support for any type of job action or public sympathy is a stretch based on ECONOMIC, not political reasons.
 

topDawg

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Nov 23, 2010
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WorldTraveler said:
The reasons are economic and not political
horse crap. this is very much about politics. 
 
I watched something the other day about the African american vote in this country. The guy said the dems don't really do anything for black people because they know they are going to get the majority of the vote no matter what.
The same problems exist with the unions. Obama isn't doing jack **** for labor because he knows that the big trade unions are going to push their money to the left no matter what.  
 
and E, I don't take it to the water cooler for this reason. There are way to many hard core union heads who live in the 1950s who don't want to listen and can't understand history. Obama could piss on their kids faces and they would still support him 100%. Like trying to get WT to say something negative about Delta.....you get more done talking to a brick wall. 
 
700UW said:
Educate yourself on the RLA, its primary function is the prevention of interruption of interstate commerce.

The law was passed before airlines ever exsisted.
and when they fallow the RLA it does work. 
 
but when a labor champion president and his administration shut down every group that tries to go on strike the RLA becomes a friggin turd. (of course its nice that some unions have the back bone to at least try to strike. Others take a BK scope concessions when the company is making profits cough cough IAM)
 
the best thing that could happen to labor for airlines is to get out of the RLA (and all the big unions grow a set of balls)  
 
 
my favorite has been the 9E pilots. NMB wouldn't let them strike because of the effect it would have on Delta. 
 
WorldTraveler said:
The notion that WN employees will find support for any type of job action or public sympathy is a stretch based on ECONOMIC, not political reasons.
and again, the only person who thinks stupid **** like sympathy matter is you. (management 101 though) 
It has nothing to do with sympathy. 
 
times have shown that you can treat labor like complete dog crap (Eastern) and expect them to take cuts that will mean literally nothing to the company because of such piss poor management has run the company into the ground
yet people like you STILL say the unions killed Eastern. The public doesn't know or like you simply doesn't want to know. Unions don't strike for sympathy, never have never will. They 
strike for ECONOMIC reasons. Put down the management textbook and come into the real world WT. 
 
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WorldTraveler

Corn Field
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I have never said who in totality killed Eastern because it is a complex question and no one person or group can be blamed.

I live in the real world. and the reasons why strikes don't work is because airline labor mgmt. knows that they really don't have much leverage - the same as what the NMB recognizes. When the true unemployment rate in the US is around 15% including people who have left the workforce because they can't find suitable work, labor doesn't have near as much leverage as you think.

The best airline group that should have leverage right now are pilots but no US airline pilot group or in the US or Asia has come up with huge increases in compensation relative ot their peers. WN pilots are paid at the top of the industry and whether you want to admit it or not, the WN culture depends on a well-functioning team and positive employee-employer relationships. WN mgmt. is pushing the limits of that relationship but when operational reliability starts to decline, it takes the public very little time to give up their loyalties. Even pre-merger AA's pilot strike cost AA revenue - which ultimately hurt the company - and provided inroads for competitors.

yes, the public really does have a vote in airline labor issues and they are not terribly inclined to support employee groups who are seeking higher wages than what they get.

that reality is far more real world than you will admit.
 
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700UW

Corn Field
Nov 11, 2003
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Dawg,
 
Your not being honest, what scope concessions did the IAM take outside of bankruptcy?
 
That would be none at PMUS.
 
It took a CBA to be abrogated for US to have the right to farmout HMV and components.
 
Before Chapter 11 there was very little outsourcing, just engine overhaul for the most part, except for JT8s, and Tays, they were done in-house.
 

Kev3188

Veteran
Oct 5, 2003
18,497
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Right in the middle.
topDawg said:
horse crap. this is very much about politics. 
 
I watched something the other day about the African american vote in this country. The guy said the dems don't really do anything for black people because they know they are going to get the majority of the vote no matter what.
The same problems exist with the unions. Obama isn't doing jack #### for labor because he knows that the big trade unions are going to push their money to the left no matter what.  
 
and E, I don't take it to the water cooler for this reason. There are way to many hard core union heads who live in the 1950s who don't want to listen and can't understand history. Obama could piss on their kids faces and they would still support him 100%. Like trying to get WT to say something negative about Delta.....you get more done talking to a brick wall. 
 

and when they fallow the RLA it does work. 
 
but when a labor champion president and his administration shut down every group that tries to go on strike the RLA becomes a friggin turd. (of course its nice that some unions have the back bone to at least try to strike. Others take a BK scope concessions when the company is making profits cough cough IAM)
 
the best thing that could happen to labor for airlines is to get out of the RLA (and all the big unions grow a set of balls)  
 
 
my favorite has been the 9E pilots. NMB wouldn't let them strike because of the effect it would have on Delta. 
 

and again, the only person who thinks stupid #### like sympathy matter is you. (management 101 though) 
It has nothing to do with sympathy. 
 
times have shown that you can treat labor like complete dog crap (Eastern) and expect them to take cuts that will mean literally nothing to the company because of such piss poor management has run the company into the ground
yet people like you STILL say the unions killed Eastern. The public doesn't know or like you simply doesn't want to know. Unions don't strike for sympathy, never have never will. They 
strike for ECONOMIC reasons. Put down the management textbook and come into the real world WT.
Stop using logic & common sense.

Actually, the best thing that could happen would be labor to stop playing by rules it never agreed to in the first place.
 
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eolesen

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Jul 23, 2003
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Well, the premise of this whole topic is a bit silly. Seems that every union winds up beating the strike preparedness drum when Section 6 gets bogged down.

Even at WN, this isn't really new ground -- the last few cycles of negotiations have all been tense, especially with the TWU, who seemingly acts like a real union at WN, while they've rolled over and peed on themselves at AA repeatedly... But even SWAPA's last cycle was far from the definition and legend of labor friendly back in the days of Herb.
 
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WorldTraveler

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here is just one article to show that US airlines are passing along a significant portion of their fuel cost savings to labor which cannot easily be removed even if fuel prices go up in the future.

http://seekingalpha.com/news/2529116-u-s-air-carriers-eye-record-summer?auth_param=6rl2l:1aljc0e:1780c6f7fab4b94ab9eb013373fbcf49&uprof=45#email_link

In Q1, 10 listed U.S. passenger airlines grew net profit 1.1% to $3.1B, helped by a 3.1% increase in revenues as the number of travelers rose 3.9%. A sharp drop in fuel prices also contributed to the higher profits, although this was offset by a 10.5% growth in wages and benefits.
 

topDawg

Veteran
Nov 23, 2010
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WorldTraveler said:
I have never said who in totality killed Eastern because it is a complex question and no one person or group can be blamed.
okay fine, the AMFA strike at NW. Same story.
 
WorldTraveler said:
I live in the real world. and the reasons why strikes don't work is because airline labor mgmt. knows that they really don't have much leverage - the same as what the NMB recognizes. When the true unemployment rate in the US is around 15% including people who have left the workforce because they can't find suitable work, labor doesn't have near as much leverage as you think.
They don't work? well you might want to tell that you years and years and years of labor. Again, pick up a book that isn't supplied by management.....
I'll even get you started, google the NK pilots strike.

 
WorldTraveler said:
The best airline group that should have leverage right now are pilots but no US airline pilot group or in the US or Asia has come up with huge increases in compensation relative ot their peers. WN pilots are paid at the top of the industry and whether you want to admit it or not, the WN culture depends on a well-functioning team and positive employee-employer relationships. WN mgmt. is pushing the limits of that relationship but when operational reliability starts to decline, it takes the public very little time to give up their loyalties. Even pre-merger AA's pilot strike cost AA revenue - which ultimately hurt the company - and provided inroads for competitors.
ugh it isn't about me admitting something or not. but again, you are management 101ing me. No other airline is doing it, so we cant do it. (but don't look at any of the data because that doesn't matter...just trust us. We are smarter than you)
 
WorldTraveler said:
yes, the public really does have a vote in airline labor issues and they are not terribly inclined to support employee groups who are seeking higher wages than what they get.
no they don't. The public has exactly zero say in contract negos between the company and the union. How in the hell do you come up with that.
 
WorldTraveler said:
that reality is far more real world than you will admit.
 management 101 "real" world.
 
700UW said:
Your not being honest, what scope concessions did the IAM take outside of bankruptcy?
are you kidding me? 1st, BK has, for the most part been an excuse for the big unions. The bulk of concessions in BK comes from LOAs, not a judge. second....might want to learn about the huge outsourcing movement at United going on right now. Hell the company was profitable when the IAM took that turd contract.

An IAM airline is about to have less in-house ACS than a non-union company who created its own company with-in the company to outsource it ACS. Your union is a failure, a complete failure when you outsource more than Delta.
 
700UW said:
That would be none at PMUS.
US airways isn't the only airline in the world. I don't know much about US, honestly, but the IAM has been or was a complete failure at United Airlines.
 
700UW said:
It took a CBA to be abrogated for US to have the right to farmout HMV and components.
 you say this then you say
 
700UW said:
Before Chapter 11 there was very little outsourcing, just engine overhaul for the most part, except for JT8s, and Tays, they were done in-house.
 this. Engine work is the largest expense for airline MX. The fact that you had an engine shop but allowed US to outsource engines is a yet another concession.
How many times did the IAM sit down with the management of US to add more engine work in-house?

Even right now, how many times has your union stat down with Parker and Kirby to find ways to bring in other airline work at US? The IAM (as well as most trade unions) are stuck in the 1950s, ran by people who hate the company because its their "job" chasing things that will never happen. The best thing that could happen to the industry, labor and management alike, is to stop the pissing contests and work to benefit each other.

 
eolesen said:
Well, the premise of this whole topic is a bit silly. Seems that every union winds up beating the strike preparedness drum when Section 6 gets bogged down.

Even at WN, this isn't really new ground -- the last few cycles of negotiations have all been tense, especially with the TWU, who seemingly acts like a real union at WN, while they've rolled over and peed on themselves at AA repeatedly... But even SWAPA's last cycle was far from the definition and legend of labor friendly back in the days of Herb.
After 3 years I would be beating that drum too. 
 
the problem is, they have to take steps to get to the point where they government will reject them. I mean hell might just freeze over and the NMB allow a strike.
 

topDawg

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Nov 23, 2010
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Kev3188 said:
Stop using logic & common sense.

Actually, the best thing that could happen would be labor to stop playing by rules it never agreed to in the first place.
the problem with that is, while its good for management to do so, the government shuts labor down if they don't fallow the RLA word for word. Hell just look at WT. he is typical airline management. Delta says "psh scope is stupid we don't want to fallow it" he makes excuse after excuse after excuse why thats okay. On the flip side, if a pilot started doing things that were against the contract or labor in general does something against the rules he flips his ****. (just look at the mess letting someone use a tug for a minute turned into) 
Make the union do something about it, or find a union that will. Airline labor is to much about "me" and not enough about "us". 
 
what needs to happen is two things. 
1) employees need to stop buying into its airline X vs airline Y crap management pushes. Its always us vs them....tell it comes to benefits then its "well united outsources this so we have to also" "American pays this so we have to pay that also"..... 
Don't agree to a turd contract because all that you do when you agree to a turd is give every other airline the chance to push that turd onto the other airlines. Look at the last DALPA contract..... United then copy and pasted it +1% pay rate. 
Why is that bad? welp the CO side went from zero RJs over 51 seats to 300+ of them. All over 88 717s that were coming anyways. 
but management plays labor off of each other all the time. 
 
and a part of this, when one union strikes everyone needs to walk. But again, the government letting that happen are over with. 
 
2) Having said that, working WITH management in some cases is the best course. Every single union should be trying to replicate what Delta does with the MRO. You create revenue that the company can show to Wall street they will keep you around. you don't then you are just a big red number on a spread sheet that they and the company spends millions to try to get rid of. 
 

700UW

Corn Field
Nov 11, 2003
37,637
19,488
NC
The engine issue went to arbitration, PMUS never did CFMs, inhouse.
 
We had an arbitration case because of the PSA engine shop had the capability before it was shutdown.
 
It went to arbitration and we lost.
 
And the IAM hasnt been at UA in almost 20 years.
 
And US has brought back in some 757 work and seats, under Parker and some A330 HMVs.
 

topDawg

Veteran
Nov 23, 2010
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700UW said:
The engine issue went to arbitration, PMUS never did CFMs, inhouse.
 
We had an arbitration case because of the PSA engine shop had the capability before it was shutdown.
 
It went to arbitration and we lost.
 
And the IAM hasnt been at UA in almost 20 years.
 
And US has brought back in some 757 work and seats, under Parker and some A330 HMVs.
excuses and then some more excuses
US outsources the most of any legacy carrier period.
 
and United isn't IAM? " The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, which represents those potentially affected by the review, learned several months ago that the carrier had asked contractors to submit proposals to perform ground handling work at several stations, union official Rich Delaney said in a bulletin posted on the union's website over the weekend."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/12/us-ual-outsourcing-idUSKBN0KL2DT20150112
 

700UW

Corn Field
Nov 11, 2003
37,637
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NC
United voted out the IAM around 20 years ago, they went AMFA and now are IBT.

Wake up and catch up with the times.
 
The ramp and CSA are IAM, we are talking about maintenance, no one has mentioned ramp.
 

WorldTraveler

Corn Field
Dec 5, 2003
21,710
10,721
their perspective on what is going on and has gone on in labor issues in the industry is PRECISELY an important part of the conversation.

and the reason why labor has had success such as with NK is when labor has been paid below its peers. That is not the case with WN employees.

and customers don't participate in negotiations but they sure do vote with their pocketbooks. In whatever industry that is being discussed, customers move their dollars away from companies that are having labor issues. customers don't want to become collateral damage. That isn't management speak. that is reality.