Swing States

[KCFlyer]

KC, you asked me to back up a statement I made and I have, now I ask the same from you.
You make this statement about stripping rights, I ask you to tell us what rights you have had stripped away from you?

[post="177511"][/post]​

Fred...what with the partiot act being what it is, it means that posts on this thread by NWA/AMT, Fly, Sentrido and others might just get us put on the "watch list" under the patriot act. Imagine...exercising our right to oppose the actions of our leader may well put us on some sort of black list, leading to further investigation into our lives.

And the funny part is...if I were to meet you, or USAir757, or local12, or any of the others, I'd be far more likely to buy you a beer and talk than I would be to blow up your neighborhood. I wouldn't find you or any of the other "pro Bush" posters to be, nitwits, ignorant, or any other deraugatory name that I and others have been called. Contrary to what many believe, dissent in this country is healthy. I mean, were all the Germans during world war II inherently evil? They pretty much followed their countries leaders.

 

[FredF]

So are you saying that you have lost the right to post on this forum or you have not.

I am still a bit confused because I hear people say that the partior act took away thier freedoms, yet I have not heard anyone back that up.

Sitll have not heard you do it either. If you say that rights have been stripped at least have an example. When I say that the war in iraq is about terrorists, I can point to all kinds of information about it, some even dating back to the Clinton administration. That surely is before Bush went to war there.
<_<

This part about diplomacy is bogus as well. The UN and Clinton tried diplomacy for 11 years and it did not work. Bush tried it as well and nothing came of it. There comes a point in time where you either have to leave a load or get off the pot and 11 years is sure long enough to figure out if diplomacy will work or not.

11 years of talking, 11 years of Sadam balking. 11 years on the UN sitting around sitting on their hands. 11 years of being pushed around by Sadam.

Iraq, a State supporter of terrorism, a state supporter of al-queida, Sadam, known to be activily trying to get his hands on nuclear weapons and materials, Sadam, known to use poision gas in the war against Iran and on his out people.

11 years of sitting by and doing nothing.

Finally, enough was enough and Bush took action. He removed the threat. Sadam did not pilot a plane that hit a building,true, but he sure supported those that did and others that wanted to do more. A sadist, who tortured his own people. A person that defied the UN for 11 years, the "Butcher of Bagdad" who given the chance would have acquired nuclear materials and/or chemical weapons and gladly handed them over to other members of al-queida so that they could come to this country and kill more innocent amreicans who just went to work so that they could feed their family.

And yet there are still those that do not think the war in iraq is about terrorism and safeguarding this country. 🙁

 

[local 12 proud]

kc i dont usally resort to calling someone a nitwit, unless they imply im a racist without ever meeting me. tell us kc was afganistan on the major terrorist threat list most likely to target us on our shores pre 9/11? NO and the reason being that the enemy we are up against is not a defined country but a fanatical belief system that encompass a large portion of this globe. do i follow my government blindly? come on man i also see the failures, but yet i also see we are targeted by a group hell bent on our destruction and i want a president who is determined to back down from no one and refuses to kiss the world a$$ asking permission to defend this GREAT NATION. you can bet russia will not ask permission to go after those responsible far that massacre at belsan and they should'nt. kc this is only going to get worse and to blame our government, is to say we should only attack when attacked. do you suggest we should just wait for the next terror attack before we act? i bet if your family members were involved you my friend would sing a different tune.

 

[Fly]

11 years.....why YES....that was when Bush the First was in office and forgot to finish the job. So now Bush Jr is back to save the day!


I have this t-shirt I wear to work out in that reads what my signature says. And KC is right, everytime I wear it in Europe, people say "hello", smile at me, give me thumbs up.....people are, on the most part, very friendly and kind!

 

[KCFlyer]

kc i dont usally resort to calling someone a nitwit, unless they imply im a racist without ever meeting me.

I didn't call you a racist. Just asking that once you have had those who point out problems in this country move out , then how much longer before someone else says that this country would be better off without some other group.

tell us kc was afganistan on the major terrorist threat list most likely to target us on our shores pre 9/11? NO and the reason being that the enemy we are up against is not a defined country but a fanatical belief system that encompass a large portion of this globe.

Are you saying that had 9/11 not happened, Bush would have attacked Afghanistan to prevent just such an event from happening? My guess is - no.

do i follow my government blindly? come on man i also see the failures, but yet i also see we are targeted by a group hell bent on our destruction and i want a president who is determined to back down from no one and refuses to kiss the world a$$ asking permission to defend this GREAT NATION.

You and I agree here...this is a great nation. The best nation on earth. But I don't think we can "go it alone" in a global war on terrorism. But Bush has effectively done that.

you can bet russia will not ask permission to go after those responsible far that massacre at belsan and they should'nt.

Nor did we stand idly by in the post 9/11 days. We went after those responsible and the country that was sheltering them. I had no problem with that.

kc this is only going to get worse and to blame our government, is to say we should only attack when attacked. do you suggest we should just wait for the next terror attack before we act? i bet if your family members were involved you my friend would sing a different tune.

What I think is that we need to have is a lot more hard evidence than we had going into Iraq. Enough evidence that it wouldn't be necessary to change the reasons for the justification of the war several different times. And you are right in saying that it's not a defined country we are up against...so no matter if we go after Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, or Argentina, there is still some sector of that fanatical group that WILL get past our borders and into our cities and conduct another terrorist attack. And the more countries we attack in an effort to "prevent" another attack, the more of those folks were weren't fanatics but have decided to become a fanatic will grow. And as long as the USA tells the rest of the world to, in the words of our Vice President "f--- off", the rest of the world will only sit back and watch.

And while I am voting for Kerry, I don't expect him to pull all our troops back. We're in the mideast for a long, long, time, IMHO. But I don't want a leader who could care less about the rest of the world taking my country down a path to destruction.

 

[KCFlyer]

11 years.....why YES....that was when Bush the First was in office and forgot to finish the job. So now Bush Jr is back to save the day!
I have this t-shirt I wear to work out in that reads what my signature says. And KC is right, everytime I wear it in Europe, people say "hello", smile at me, give me thumbs up.....people are, on the most part, very friendly and kind!

[post="177532"][/post]​

Fly...any chance of getting a shot of the front of that shirt 😉

 

[local 12 proud]

kc you dirty devil you, my thoughts exactly!

 

[local 12 proud]

kc you must vote your consious and that is your one given right and i respect that, but i disagree when you say we have "gone it alone' you have been given many examples of those who support us and are also fighting this war alongside us. this is about our survival as a free country, not about oil, or revenge as many would like to believe and to assert such is merely burying ones head in the sand. i suppose 9/11 was'nt enough of a wake up call for a lot of people maybe a terrorist attack such as russia just experienced or perhaps god forbid a WMD attack on our soil will do the trick, but your error when you say the rest of the world will set back and watch unless of course your idea of the world revokes around france and germany!

 

[FredF]

And as long as the USA tells the rest of the world to, in the words of our Vice President "f--- off", the rest of the world will only sit back and watch.

And while I am voting for Kerry, I don't expect him to pull all our troops back. We're in the mideast for a long, long, time, IMHO. But I don't want a leader who could care less about the rest of the world taking my country down a path to destruction.

[post="177536"][/post]​

See, but the problem with that argument is that we did not tell the rest of the world to go away, they told us not to do it. Big difference. Bush went to the rest of the world, he went to the UN and asked for support. France and Germany and some others told us to forget it. They wanted no part in going into Iraq. They had their own reasons of course, but they did not want to stand by us.

The president asked for help and got very little, well if you call 40 nations very little and going it "alone".

The problem is that the president said what he meant and did what he said. He said that Iraq was a threat, and that has been shown here, he said that Sadam needed to be removed and that it was in our own national interest that it be done. He said that diplomacy did not work, as evidenced by the 11 years, and he asked for help and support. Getting the very littel that he did, as mentioned above, he want ahead and did it anyway.

That is not telling the world to go away, that is doing what you say you will with or without support.

The current backlash only came about when he actually did what he said he would. France and Germany and the dems stood aghast. How dare an american president say he would take measures to secure the United States and then actually do it.

Germany and France have only themselvs to blame for looking foolish. They have done a wonderful job of spinning the situation so that they do not look bad so have the dems and the media elite.

As I mentioned before here, there comes a time to put up or shut up, and the president stood his ground.

I cannot say this enough.

He said what he was going to do. He asked for help, those that supported him came, and he did what he said.



Tell me where we have turned anyone away that came and said we support America, how can we help?

That is telling off other nations. That is saying "$%#@#@$@#$ yourselvs"

Didn't happen.

 

[KCFlyer]

The president asked for help and got very little, well if you call 40 nations very little and going it "alone".

What about the other 220 nations that did not join us? Do you have a list of those 40 nations? How large are the militaries of those 40 nations, or do they even have militaries?

The problem is that the president said what he meant and did what he said. He said that Iraq was a threat, and that has been shown here, he said that Sadam needed to be removed and that it was in our own national interest that it be done. He said that diplomacy did not work, as evidenced by the 11 years, and he asked for help and support. Getting the very littel that he did, as mentioned above, he want ahead and did it anyway.

You said it. HE said that saddam needed to be removed and HE said that diplomacy did not work and HE went ahead and did it anyways. That my friend, is called "f--- off".

The current backlash only came about when he actually did what he said he would. France and Germany and the dems stood aghast. How dare an american president say he would take measures to secure the United States and then actually do it.

And as I said in my response to local 12...no matter how many countries we preemptively attack, the shores of the US are no safer from terrorist attacks than they were on 9/11. AS local12 said - it's not a country - it's extremists who will go to any cave in any available country to plan their attacks.

Germany and France have only themselvs to blame for looking foolish. They have done a wonderful job of spinning the situation so that they do not look bad so have the dems and the media elite.

I go back to the Time interview with Chirac before the war. His concerns are proving to be true. But we wouldn't listen because France had "self interests" in Iraq. As I recall, the USA had a "self interest" in Iraq some time back...back when Iraq was fighting with Iran and we sold them, ahem, chemical and biological weapons.

He said what he was going to do. He asked for help, those that supported him came, and he did what he said.

And I cannot say this enough...he did not ask for help. He TOLD them what he was going to do, and you're either with us or against us.

Side note to local12 - I am bolding this because I want it to be easier to see. In rereading an earlier post I made, I can see how it might be interpreted that I was insinuating that you were a racist. That was not my intention. My posts tend to "run long" and in an attepmt at brevity, I left out some words, that in retrospect, may have been construed to imply you are a racist. I tried to remove those comments from my post and could not, but wanted to express my apologies either way.

 

[FredF]

I cannot disagree more with your contention.

Going to the UN, going to other nations, laying out your case and a plan of action and asking for their help and support cannot in any way be taken as telling them to piss up a rope, for lack of a better phrase.

There is just not way.

None.

If you do not think that The Secretary of State, not the UN ambassador, going to the UN and asking for support and a resolution is not asking for help, then perhaps you can tell us what you do consider asking for help and support constitutes?

 

[KCFlyer]

I cannot disagree more with your contention.

Going to the UN, going to other nations, laying out your case and a plan of action and asking for their help and support cannot in any way be taken as telling them to piss up a rope, for lack of a better phrase.

There is just not way.

None.

If you do not think that The Secretary of State, not the UN ambassador, going to the UN and asking for support and a resolution is not asking for help, then perhaps you can tell us what you do consider asking for help and support constitutes?

[post="177596"][/post]​

Fred, there's a difference between asking for help and telling them what you are going to do.

 

[AA-MCI]

Yeah, theres a big difference between asking and demanding. When you use only the intelligence that supports what you want to do, don't be surprised if nobody rushes to join you.

As for the patriot act, read section 215 of the patriot act and see if you think it doesn't conflict with the 4th amendment. Then imagine Bill Clinton and Janet Reno being in office and how you would feel about it then.

 

[FredF]

Fred, there's a difference between asking for help and telling them what you are going to do.

[post="177597"][/post]​

Why can they not be the same thing?

Seriously, why can you not say to the world "Here is what proof we have and what we intend to do about it. Please help us and stand with us in this regard"


Why can you not do that?



AA so what liberties have you been deprived of?

 

[KCFlyer]

Why can they not be the same thing?

Seriously, why can you not say to the world "Here is what proof we have and what we intend to do about it. Please help us and stand with us in this regard"
Why can you not do that?
AA so what liberties have you been deprived of?

[post="177612"][/post]​

They didn't show proof. As far as what civil liberties we are deprived of...as I mentioned, under the patriot act, mere postings that disagree with the government can put us on a watch list. The government, with no reason whatsoever, can monitor the books I check out, the organizations I belong to, the internet sites I visit, the events that I attend. And I don't even have to be told about it. nevermind that in my 47 years in this country, my worst "crime against the state" has been for driving 60 in a 45 mph zone - The government now has the right to violate my fourth and first ammendment rights. Just because.