The Benfit Of Negotiating

USA320Pilot

Veteran
May 18, 2003
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www.usaviation.com
I believe labor and the unions should sit down and discuss the issues. Then the parties have the option of striking a deal or not and sending it out for membership ratification.

Why? If the cost-effective agreements, which in the end will probably be like JetBlue or America West contracts, are unacceptable, then the employee has a choice: either quit working for the company or stay at US Airways.

However, without a competitive cost structure -- across-the-board -- the airline will fail because the new ATSB agreement does not give much time before the airline must be profitable.

For those filled with anger or bitterness, cost cuts are coming one way or another, whether it’s liquidation or consensual.

Therefore, when it’s all said and done for those who find the potential new agreements unacceptable, I believe it's better to have a job, with an income, medical benefits, dental benefits, travel privileges, etc. than to have only unemployment, while you seek other employment.

Regards,

USA320Pilot
 
I wonder if all the junior guys who have been sold up the river by the AAA MEC/ALPA feel the same way.....

I think Fred Freshwater said it best:

What I am willing to do now is, at least, look at what management may propose. This will require much more than just “a planâ€. To be successful and enjoy any longevity in today’s economic environment will require a creative initiative on the part of both labor and management. As Siegel’s minions incessantly bemoan, “the world as we know it has come to an endâ€. Well, to be successful in a service-oriented business such as ours, particularly in today’s hostile business climate, it will require a creative business plan with the dedication of a team approach. Anything less will be suicidal. To achieve this level of commitment from the employees of this “once-proud†company will require an uncompromising level of support and encouragement from this management group. The punitive, debilitating practices of the past must be ended to ensure our mutual success.

I feel that it is primarily the domain of management to craft a plan, which will, hopefully, result in the ultimate survival of this corporation. We, as a union, wish to assist in its creation. Hopefully, we will not be assisting in forging the chains for our own servitude! It is not now, nor can it ever be, the job of the union to save this company! I believe that this corporation, if nothing changes, will, inevitably, cease to exist. Is it possible that this management has shown a keen ability to “manage our expectations†in order to extract the maximum from our group, i.e., figuratively, turning us upside down and shaking every last nickel from our pockets? This is, of course, a distinct possibility. If so, it will surely end in our mutual demise. If, however, they are sincere in their desire to save this corporation for other than their own aggrandizement, then the results of the upcoming negotiations should prove revealing; otherwise, they will be self-incriminating. If the usual attempt to “blow smoke up our posterior orifice†is evident, then we will have succeeded in flushing out a rat and should act accordingly! I promise you that I shall.
 
Me, Me Me, I, I I........Some of us are getting tired of this....My work group has negotiated twice and given both times!! And now the company is back for more......I don't know about anybody else but I am tired of giving and am not voting yes again just so YOU can keep your job!!! To me it just does not make much sense to vote yourself out of a job, and don't give me this B.S. about surviving to fight another day or to negotiate a compromise to the current contract. We have tried barginging in good faith and with this current managment it just does not happen.

If your group feels the need to give again let it be so but don't try and force it upon the other labor groups. Everyone must do what they feel is right for their own personal situation.
 
320,
You can save yourself much time by just going back to your prior posts and "pasting" all you previous posts prior to the last two contract votes as they all contain the same type of info.

3 pages.....I can see 6 or 7 from this topic... :D
 
Pilots have locked themselves into the company they work for through the structure of their contracts. For senior pilots just about any sacrifice is reasonable. For the longer the pilot is with an airline the less likely he will ever economically recover should that carrier liquidate.

Mechanics are in a different ball game. Five years and you are back at top pay. It never pays to give concessions. We are better off to just say no, make our money while its there and roll our tools out the door to the next place when they fail.

Through my carreer Ive found myself doing the same job, on the very same planes with a different paint job. I watched the guys at Pan Am give concession after concession. Pan Am was sick a long time. EAL got sick quicker and Frank Lorenzo ensured that it died quicker. When EAL went under other airlines bought the routes and hired their mechanics. A year or so later the PAN AM guys , despite all the concessions they gave PAN AM, making them the lowest paid in the industry, watched PAN AM close their doors. Their reward? Less pension, because as it fought to stay afloat they did not fund their pension. Smaller bank accounts , because they worked for lower wages and less seniority than the EAL guys because their concessions delayed the inevitable .The lesson is clear. Airlines dont go bankrupt because of our wages. If SWA can pay mechanics $36 per hour and make a profit then why cant everyone else? If UPS can pay their mechanics over $40 per hour then why cant everyone else? The fate of a company lies with those who manage it and make the decisions, you do not do that. Taking paycuts to try and make up for their inadequacies is pointless. All it will do is provide those at the top the ability to stuff more millions in their pocket while they make empty promises to you.
 
320Pilot,

Get a real clue buddy. We have given twice to this leadership group and we are still as broken as we ever were. Your group has given 3 times when you calculate the loss of your pension into this formula.

With the above facts being what they are , why in heavens name are you so quick to assume that a 3rd time for the majority or a 4th time for the ALPA members is going to spell Mother? IMHO...you are too quick to spell out or cry UNCLE.

The reality of the circumstance is this. USAirways is not an LCC by design...and for us to compete as such , with a mixed fleet as we have , including 1st Class offerings and international services. Imagine if you will? just how low the rank and file will have to lower their levels of compensation to mearly compete with a single fleet type domestic LCC operation.

With that said..you as a pilot might still be drawing a respectable salary as opposed to the Young that your group have sold down the river at MDA...yet the rest of us will be asked to work harder with fewer for less than what one can call a living wage. No Thanks....I'll take my chances with another line of work or taking some additional classes to make myself even more marketable in another field.

Unlike some , I have not painted myself into a financial corner by trying to keep up with the Jones's and the alike...So I say it's time to force them to run the airline without the employee's under-writing it with wage concessions and job loss intimidation tugging at my purse strings and spirit on a daily basis.

I'm ready for what may come?....but it's my lasting hope that our leadership will see the light and fix the true operational problems and plug the holes in the system that bleed money. You and I giving , everytime they pass the hat at the whaling wall does not promote or send the needed message to correct these problems.

Whether you choose to believe it or not? You are still labor yourself...and being such , You are the axe that they are ever so eager to grind into oblivion. Step off your so called "Observers perch" for a moment and see the realty of the entire circumstance. Please keep in mind , The CEO at DL which is far larger than U...is asking his pilots for wage concessions..yet he's taken a bite for a fee of 500K without any other perks or bonuses....look at the CEO of the floundering #7 airline in the US , look what he's making and what he's asking of you. Stark Contrast from this "Observers Perch" :p

Wake Up and smell the Java man , you are definately in the minority with your thinking and eager acceptance of things as they are being presented...and thank God All Mighty for that !!!


FYI____ Tomorrows webcast is an admission of not being able to face the workforce with thier message..they know it will not play well with the workers of U and it's my opinion that Dave is not prepared to take the heat for what he's trying to present to us again. His credibilit is shot....that's why Doctor Bronner has had to step in with the Mutt and Jeff routine with ALPA and the AFA.
 
USA320Pilot,

Please correct me if I read your post at the top of this thread incorrectly, but you seem to equate competitive contracts (say JetBlue's) with a competitive cost structure.

Competitive contracts affect the pay, working conditions, and benefits of the employees. These in turn affect CASM, but aren't the only factor.

A competitive cost structure IS a competitive CASM, taking into account the fact that we should be able to get some yield advantage from those things we offer that the LCC's don't - say a 10% premium. CASM is determined by a number of factors other than employee compensation.

So, if everyone employee group adopted JetBlue's contracts tomorrow, we would not have a competitive cost structure. Several of the reasons are:

1) 4 year old growing airline vs 70 year old downsized airline results in more (most) employees at top of scale - higher CASM.

2) Point-to-point airline vs hub/spoke airline - higher CASM.

3) Single fleet type vs mixed fleet - higher CASM.

4) Newer fleet vs older fleet - higher CASM.

5) Longer average stage length (1300+ miles) vs shorter average stage length (800- miles) - higher CASM

6) All coach vs 2-class - higher CASM

The list goes on.

You can have competitive contracts, but not a competitive cost structure. You can have a competitive cost structure but less than competitive contracts. What you CANNOT have is competitive contracts AND a competitive cost structure.

Jim
 
USA320: my union sold us down the river without the life preservers and the top pay is 13.00 an hr. if we give another 10% we might as well say we should go to walmart because the pay would be close to it if not below it. i believe that managment just gave themselves a 4% pay RAISE while at the same time asking their less than valuable assest--the employees-- for a 3rd round when will it stop i refuse to give up more money and that is if we in the small-medium money making cities even get a chance to vote.
 
USA320Pilot said:
I believe labor and the unions should sit down and discuss the issues. Then the parties have the option of striking a deal or not...
I find it curious that you did not include the company in the "sit down." Of course Mgt is not really necessary. Labor is getting fleeced enough already by the Unions. (Was your omission a “Freudian slipâ€￾?)

You are so anxious to sit down with Austin. Would you be willing to sit across the table with the retirees and the 1,879? Come on. We will buy you lunch. The negotiations with us should be painless. We have nothing left to offer you except to stay off your “exclusiveâ€￾ message board. But please hurry. That is about to be taken from us too.
 
I agree with 320 ! We will work more for less, one way or the other. Whether we agree or its forced on us in another bk filing. So really the choice is simple. Lower your blood pressure and leave, or stay and accept reality. I mean isnt it that simple. If theres anyone on this board who feels US cant and wont file bk again at some point and force us to take additional cuts, raise your hand..... I mean please its plain and simple like the nose on her face!!!! I dont like it but HELLO> unions cant help us now!
 
usfliboi,

"its forced on us in another bk filing"

It's amazing how often you see the spector of another bankruptcy thrown out, even by the "analysts". This form the ATSB loan agreement Section 7.1 Events of Default:

(f) (i) a court shall enter a decree or order for relief in respect of either Group or the Borrower in an involuntary case under the Bankruptcy Code or under any other applicable bankruptcy, insolvency or similar law now or hereafter in effect.

(g) (i) Group or the Borrower shall have an order for relief entered with respect to it or commence a voluntary case under the Bankruptcy Code or under any other applicable bankruptcy, insolvency or similar law now or hereafter in effect, or shall consent to the entry of an order for relief in an involuntary case, or to the conversion of an involuntary case to a voluntary case.

Jim