The Significance Of Us Airways Surviving

[PITbull]

Trader Jake,

I suppose you think that ATSB bailout was NO gov. intervening and was more of a "free enterprise" kind-a-thing.

And I bet you conclude that using tax payer money as the DIP fianciers in Bk #2, was more like..."lazzai faire"???? B)

Okie-dokie.

 

[traderjake]

There's a big difference between the government loaning an airline money vs the government dictating where it can fly and how much it charges for the ticket.

You don't like the price people are willing to pay for your skills in a competitive market so you want the government to set the price.

 

[supercruiser]

On CNN this morning they said over 100 airlines have failed since deregulation. There was comparison to legacy or startup.

[post="301303"][/post]​

List of bankrupt airlines from deregulation in 79 up to 03:

The table below is a loose, unofficial compilation of research conducted by various individuals. Neither DOT nor ATA maintains official records of air carrier bankruptcy filings. As such, ATA can not verify the accuracy of each individual entry. The table is provided as a service rather than an authoritative source. It is the only known source that is publicly available, free of charge, and centralized.

Pre-1978, bankruptcies were extremely rare in the unduly regulated environment. [Some exceptions existed for intra-state carriers, which were not regulated by the Civil Aeronautics Board.] The CAB typically arranged marriages between failing carriers (i.e., Northeast) and survivors (i.e., Delta), transferring routes and assets to the surviving carrier. Since 1978, there have been well over 100 bankruptcy filings, although not all of these have resulted in liquidation.

DATE Carrier Chapter

5/18/79 New York Airways 11
11/19/79 Aeroamerica 11
1/24/80 Florida Airlines 11
3/3/80 Indiana Airlines 11
12/15/80 Air Bahia 11
12/31/80 Tejas Airlines 11
3/6/81 Mountain West 11
3/16/81 LANICA 11
7/13/81 Coral Air 11
9/11/81 Pacific Coast 11
9/18/81 Swift Air Line 11
10/9/81 Golden Gate 11
1/26/82 Pinehurst Airlines 11
3/3/82 Silver State Airlines 11
3/26/82 Air Pennsylvania 11
4/2/82 Air South 11
4/16/82 Cochise Airlines 11
5/13/82 Braniff International 11
7/8/82 Astec Air East 11
8/19/82 Will's Air 11
10/5/82 Aero Sun International 11
10/19/82 Aero Virgin Islands 11
11/9/82 Altair 11
12/9/82 North American 11
2/1/83 Inland Empire 11
2/14/83 State Airlines 11
4/22/83 Golden West 11
9/24/83 Continental Airlines 11
12/2/83 National Florida 7
1/30/84 Air Vermont 11
2/2/84 Pacific Express 11
2/8/84 Dolphin 11
4/9/84 Combs Airways 11
7/3/84 Air Florida 11
7/17/84 Excellair 7
7/19/84 American International 11
8/21/84 Emerald 11
8/29/84 Hammonds Commuter 11
9/4/84 Air North 11
9/27/84 Wright Air Lines 11
10/2/84 Oceanaire Lines 7
10/10/84 Atlantic Gulf 11
10/10/84 Connectaire 7
10/26/84 Air One 11
11/23/84 Capitol Air 11
11/28/84 Wren Air Alaska 11
1/8/85 Northeastern International 11
1/22/85 Pompano Airways 11
2/22/85 Far West Airlines 11
3/8/85 American Central 11
3/13/85 Provincetown Boston 11
3/19/85 Sun West Airlines 11
5/1/85 Wise Airlines 11
8/19/85 Cascade Airways 11
10/7/85 Wheeler Airlines 11
12/2/85 Pride Air 11
1/21/86 Southern Express 11
1/30/86 Imperial Airlines 11
2/11/86 Arrow Airways 11
4/9/86 Sea Airmotive 11
8/19/86 Trans Air 11
8/28/86 Frontier Airlines 11
2/19/87 Chicago Airlines 11
2/23/87 McClain Airlines 11
2/27/87 Rio Airways 11
3/6/87 Air Puerto Rico 11
3/10/87 Gull Air 11
3/12/87 Royal West Airlines 11
4/3/87 Air Atlanta 11
6/17/87 Air South 11
9/9/87 Royale Airlines 11
1/5/88 Sun Coast Airlines 11
1/14/88 Air New Orleans 11
1/15/88 Air Virginia 11
1/20/88 Mid Pacific Airlines 11
3/4/88 Exec Express 11
5/6/88 Caribbean Express 11
5/25/88 Pocono Airlines 11
6/20/88 Virgin Island Seaplane 11
8/11/88 Princeton Air Link 7
9/14/88 Qwest Air 11
9/27/88 Southern Jersey Airways 11
3/9/89 Eastern Air Lines 11
3/14/89 Big Sky Airlines 11
7/19/89 Air Kentucky 7
9/28/89 Braniff International 11
10/26/89 Presidential Airways 11
11/12/89 Resorts International 11
11/17/89 Resort Commuter 11
1/23/90 Pocono Airlines 11
5/10/90 SMB Stage Lines 11
7/5/90 CCAir 11
12/3/90 Continental Airlines 11
12/3/90 Britt Airways 11
12/3/90 Rocky Mountain Airways 11
1/8/91 Pan Am World Airways 11
1/8/91 Pan Am Express 11
1/9/91 L'Express 11
1/18/91 Eastern Air Lines 7
1/20/91 Bar Harbor Airlines 11
1/22/91 Virgin Island Seaplane 11
1/29/91 Northcoast Executive 7
3/25/91 Midway Airlines 11
3/26/91 Grand Airways 11
4/1/91 Metro Airlines 11
5/20/91 Jet Express 11
5/30/91 Metro Airlines Northeast 11
6/27/91 America West Airlines 11
8/12/91 Mohawk Airlines 11
11/7/91 Midway Airlines 7
12/31/91 Flagship Express 11
1/31/92 Trans World Airlines 11
2/28/92 L'Express 7
6/8/92 Markair 11
6/8/92 Hermans/Markair Express 11
12/15/92 States West Airlines 11
9/20/93 Evergreen International Aviation 11
9/21/93 Hawaiian Airlines 11
1993 Key Airlines 11
3/21/94 Resorts International 11
10/11/94 Florida West Airlines 11
2/3/95 Crescent Airways 11
4/14/95 Markair 11
6/30/95 Trans World Airlines 11
12/15/95 The Krystal Company 11
11/28/95 Grand Airways 11
1/10/96 GP Express 11
1/22/96 Business Express 11
1/23/96 Conquest Airlines 11
9/30/96 Kiwi International Airlines 11
7/25/97 Mahalo 11
8/28/97 Air South 11
10/5/97 Western Pacific Airlines 11
11/6/97 Mountain Air Express 11
2/26/98 Pan American World Airways 11
7/29/98 Euram Flight Centre 11
3/23/99 Kiwi International Airlines 11
6/25/99 Sunjet International/Myrtle Beach Jet Express 11
9/30/99 Eastwind Airlines 7
11/29/99 Access Air 11
2/29/00 Tower Air 11
5/1/00 Kitty Hawk 11
9/19/00 Pro Air 11
9/27/00 Fine Air Services 11
12/3/00 Legend Airlines 11
12/6/00 National Airlines 11
1/10/01 Trans World Airlines 11
8/13/01 Midway Airlines 11
1/2/02 Sun Country Airlines 7
7/30/02 Vanguard Airlines 11
8/11/02 US Airways 11
12/9/02 United Airlines 11
3/21/03 Hawaiian Airlines 11

Sources: ATA research; DOT records; "The Bankruptcy Virus in the U.S. Airline Industry: Causes and Cures," Aviation Forecasting and Economics and The George Washington University; Lehman Brothers Equity Research, BankruptcyData.com

 

[MrAeroMan]

are you referring to WN as a lemonade stand? The largest domestic carrier? LOL

[post="301083"][/post]​

WN is making it's money right now off of fuel hedges. If it wasn't for that they'd be losing tons of money like everyone else. There was a time when UAL was the largest domestic carrier. Look where they are today. Don't think it can't happen at WN.

 

[traderjake]

supercruiser

How many of those airlines existed before deregulation?

 

[UseYourHead]

Well a good start on the list would be PanAm, TWA, Braniff, and Eastern.

supercruiser

How many of those airlines existed before deregulation?

[post="301761"][/post]​

 

[speedbird86]

What ever happened to a small regional called Mall Airways? They were known as "Small Mall" and hopped between ROC, BUF, SYR and maybe a few other upstate NY cities. Was thinking they went into BK and went out of business.

Also didn't know about Wheeler. Use to bum a ride on them between CLT and TRI back in the Piedmont days. Always thought that Wheeler was a conflict of interest to those out there that know the story behind Wheeler.

And one more. Sunbird. What ever happened to them?

 

[a320av8r]

What ever happened to a small regional called Mall Airways? They were known as "Small Mall" and hopped between ROC, BUF, SYR and maybe a few other upstate NY cities. Was thinking they went into BK and went out of business.

Also didn't know about Wheeler. Use to bum a ride on them between CLT and TRI back in the Piedmont days. Always thought that Wheeler was a conflict of interest to those out there that know the story behind Wheeler.

And one more. Sunbird. What ever happened to them?

[post="302032"][/post]​

Sunbird became CCAir (Piedmont Commuter) which was bought and dismantled by... Yup- MESA.

Wheeler shut down after an investigation by the FAA.

I think Mall went away too.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The bankruptcy success rate is much higher than it was at the beginning of deregulation. UA is likely to emerge as a standalone unit; bankruptcy experts are saying DL and NW's initial moves say that they have a good chance of emerging from bankruptcy. In fact, US is the only legacy so far that will not emerge (since it is technically being acquired) and that is "after 22 chapters have been written".

 

[cybercat]

Reeve Aleutian is missing from this list. I recall flying on them to the Pribilof Islands in the middle of the Bering Sea. What a trip that was.

CC

List of bankrupt airlines from deregulation in 79 up to 03:

 

[javaboy]

On CNN this morning they said over 100 airlines have failed since deregulation. There was comparison to legacy or startup. It was the overall total they were talking about and the fact that congress deregulated the industry creating part of the problem, and that now they need to do something to fix the problem deregulation caused. I'm not sure what the remedy is supposed to be.

[post="301303"][/post]​

and still AL KAHN will say that deregulation was a resounding success. meaning his only reasonig for sucess is the price of the ticket sold to the public. A national airline system has become a must, its pretty obvious that if the Al Kahns of the world say this is a "natural evolution" and let market forces take its effects then they must also agree that the same reason for the natural evolution (deregulation) is directly responsible for the destablization of the American Aviation System.

 

[apofurlough]

What ever happened to a small regional called Mall Airways? They were known as "Small Mall" and hopped between ROC, BUF, SYR and maybe a few other upstate NY cities. Was thinking they went into BK and went out of business.

I am not sure if they went bankrupt or not but they went out of business. I worked for them for a few years in the early 80's and now can only laugh in horror at some of their business practices. Can't even imagine them trying to survive in this day and age - no computers; all reservations done by hand on a sheet of paper. The number of seats marked off on a lined sheet of paper and if a space was open you wrote in the name and if they cancelled you just erased it and seat was open to sell simplicity at its best. But they also would sell the actual co-pilot seat to a revenue passenger if it was requested. I remember a couple of times the co-pilot had to wait in SYR or ROC for the next flight back .

They also flew to ELM, ITH and EWR all with little prop planes that would hold 4 or 6 psgrs except for EWR which was a beechcraft which they were proud of at 19 psgrs.

 

[UseYourHead]

Chapter 7

What ever happened to a small regional called Mall Airways? They were known as "Small Mall" and hopped between ROC, BUF, SYR and maybe a few other upstate NY cities. Was thinking they went into BK and went out of business.

I am not sure if they went bankrupt or not but they went out of business. I worked for them for a few years in the early 80's and now can only laugh in horror at some of their business practices. Can't even imagine them trying to survive in this day and age - no computers; all reservations done by hand on a sheet of paper. The number of seats marked off on a lined sheet of paper and if a space was open you wrote in the name and if they cancelled you just erased it and seat was open to sell simplicity at its best. But they also would sell the actual co-pilot seat to a revenue passenger if it was requested. I remember a couple of times the co-pilot had to wait in SYR or ROC for the next flight back .

They also flew to ELM, ITH and EWR all with little prop planes that would hold 4 or 6 psgrs except for EWR which was a beechcraft which they were proud of at 19 psgrs.

[post="302278"][/post]​

 

[UseYourHead]

In BK you are not in control of your business, the judge & creditors run the show.

Out of BK the company reports to the shareholders (unless it is a private company) and has access to better capital sources & credit....

Can some one explain tome why its good for an airline to come out of BK?

[post="301088"][/post]​

 

[deltawatch]

WN is making it's money right now off of fuel hedges.  If it wasn't for that they'd be losing tons of money like everyone else.  There was a time when UAL was the largest domestic carrier.  Look where they are today.  Don't think it can't happen at WN.

[post="301658"][/post]​

Airline consultant Mike Boyd of the Boyd Group in Evergreen, Colo., warns that the legacy carriers are making a mistake if they try to transform into Southwest. That airline focuses on popular routes between large cities and cannot make money flying to small cities.

"You can't operate a global airline like that," Boyd said.

Boyd predicts that the low-fare airlines will face significant troubles in coming years, as their fuel hedges expire and they increasingly begin to compete with one another rather than the legacy airlines.

"In a year or so, we're going to be talking about how Southwest and JetBlue are in so much trouble," he said.

That view suggests that the legacy airlines will be better off maintaining the core of their longtime business model, but with some changes to cut costs and boost revenues. It's a road that American has been on for several years, and it has made more progress than most of the large hub airlines.

Airlines ((like US Airways)) will continue to expand international service, which is generally far more profitable than domestic flying. Service on less-profitable routes will be reduced and, in many cases, shifted to regional airlines that fly smaller aircraft.

And the legacy airlines will maintain or even upgrade their first-class cabins, admiral's clubs and other perks that entice well-heeled business travelers. These moves will maximize revenues and draw customers away from the discounters.

All of this must be done with reduced costs. And few can predict with certainty that the legacy airlines can cut deeply enough to return to profitability.

"The environment is so volatile right now," Kuhlmann said.

Seth Young, an assistant professor of business at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Fla., predicts that the discount and the legacy business models will survive, but in a somewhat modified form.

"You'll have the JetBlues of the world serving the high-demand domestic markets, with a lot of leisure travelers," he said.

Meanwhile, the legacy carriers will focus on being global airlines, concentrating on international routes and contracting with regional carriers to feed passengers from smaller cities to their gateway hubs.

"The problem for the legacy carriers right now is that they're trying to do both," he said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/12679168.htm