To those that think you can or will vacate the coming NMB decision in court

Sep 9, 2002
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 A reversal will not happen. American Airlines found out with the CWA and the customer service employee's in 2012/2013 when trying to fight a NMB decision and the RLA.
 
See Case: 12-10-10680 final decision (10-03-2012) and Case: 4:12-cv-00276-Y opinions vacated. (pdf attached)
 
 
"Judicial review of NMB decisions pursuant to the exception carved out by the Supreme Court in Leedom v. Kyne, 358 U.S. 184 (1958) is only appropriate where there is a "plain" violation of an unambiguous and mandatory provision of the statute," or in other words, where the NMB has committed "egregious error".
 
See NMB arguments Case 12-10-10680 (07/10/2012) (pdf attached)
 
"The RLA was enacted to ensure "the prompt and orderly settlement of" labor-management disputes in the railroad and airline industries, see 45 U.S.C. 151A. Thus, courts have not applied "conventional principles of judicial review" to the Board's decision under the RLA. See, e.g., Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. v. NMB, 956 F.2d 1245, 1250 (2d Cir. 1999) (refusing to apply the Administrative Procedure Act). As the Supreme Court has emphasized, the congressional "intent seems plain - the dispute was to reach its last terminal point when the administrative finding was made. There was to be no dragging out of the controversy into other tribunals of law." (recognizing "statutory command to attain a prompt and orderly settlement of labor disputes"). Thus, speed is an "RLA objective of the first order." The RLA "puts a premium on speed of resolution," and is intended to prevent representation disputes from being dragged out. "
 
"1. In keeping with the statutory "premium on speed of resolution," for more than sixty years it has been well-settled doctrine that actions taken by the Board in representation disputes under the RLA are generally unreviewable. In Switchmen's Union, the Supreme Court held that, under the RLA, Congress entrusted the responsibility for protecting the collective bargaining rights of employees exclusively to the Board, not the courts. Accordingly, the Court declared that the Board's determinations in representation disputes were unreviewable "whether the (alleged) error be one of fact or law," The supreme Court confirmed this doctrine"
 
"Consistent with Switchmen's Union, the courts have universally agreed that the details and procedures of representational disputes are committed solely to the Board's discretion. Indeed, judicial review under the RLA is "one of the narrowest known to law. IAM v. TWA, 839 F.2d 809, 811 (D.C. Cir. 1988) amended, 848 F.2d 232 (D.C. Cir 1988). Judicial review of the Board's decision may be available only where the plaintiff has established, on the face of the pleadings, that the decision involved "patent official bad faith"; violated the constitutional rights of the employer, employee, of the union; or was a "gross violation" of the RLA. A "gross violation" of the RLA occurs only in the NMB's action are "in excess of its delegated powers and contrary to a specific prohibition in the act,""
 
 
Of course some will argue this is a single carrier determination and not a representation dispute yet.
 
We will see.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Attachments

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usairways_vote_NO said:
 A reversal will not happen. American Airlines found out with the CWA and the customer service employee's in 2012/2013 when trying to fight a NMB decision and the RLA.
 
See Case: 12-10-10680 final decision (10-03-2012) and Case: 4:12-cv-00276-Y opinions vacated. (pdf attached)
 
 
"Judicial review of NMB decisions pursuant to the exception carved out by the Supreme Court in Leedom v. Kyne, 358 U.S. 184 (1958) is only appropriate where there is a "plain" violation of an unambiguous and mandatory provision of the statute," or in other words, where the NMB has committed "egregious error".
 
See NMB arguments Case 12-10-10680 (07/10/2012) (pdf attached)
 
"The RLA was enacted to ensure "the prompt and orderly settlement of" labor-management disputes in the railroad and airline industries, see 45 U.S.C. 151A. Thus, courts have not applied "conventional principles of judicial review" to the Board's decision under the RLA. See, e.g., Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. v. NMB, 956 F.2d 1245, 1250 (2d Cir. 1999) (refusing to apply the Administrative Procedure Act). As the Supreme Court has emphasized, the congressional "intent seems plain - the dispute was to reach its last terminal point when the administrative finding was made. There was to be no dragging out of the controversy into other tribunals of law." (recognizing "statutory command to attain a prompt and orderly settlement of labor disputes"). Thus, speed is an "RLA objective of the first order." The RLA "puts a premium on speed of resolution," and is intended to prevent representation disputes from being dragged out. "
 
"1. In keeping with the statutory "premium on speed of resolution," for more than sixty years it has been well-settled doctrine that actions taken by the Board in representation disputes under the RLA are generally unreviewable. In Switchmen's Union, the Supreme Court held that, under the RLA, Congress entrusted the responsibility for protecting the collective bargaining rights of employees exclusively to the Board, not the courts. Accordingly, the Court declared that the Board's determinations in representation disputes were unreviewable "whether the (alleged) error be one of fact or law," The supreme Court confirmed this doctrine"
 
"Consistent with Switchmen's Union, the courts have universally agreed that the details and procedures of representational disputes are committed solely to the Board's discretion. Indeed, judicial review under the RLA is "one of the narrowest known to law. IAM v. TWA, 839 F.2d 809, 811 (D.C. Cir. 1988) amended, 848 F.2d 232 (D.C. Cir 1988). Judicial review of the Board's decision may be available only where the plaintiff has established, on the face of the pleadings, that the decision involved "patent official bad faith"; violated the constitutional rights of the employer, employee, of the union; or was a "gross violation" of the RLA. A "gross violation" of the RLA occurs only in the NMB's action are "in excess of its delegated powers and contrary to a specific prohibition in the act,""
 
 
Of course some will argue this is a single carrier determination and not a representation dispute yet.
 
We will see.
 
The case you cite itself has no bearing on the current situation, this piece is however accurate ...
 
"Judicial review of NMB decisions pursuant to the exception carved out by the Supreme Court in Leedom v. Kyne, 358 U.S. 184 (1958) is only appropriate where there is a "plain" violation of an unambiguous and mandatory provision of the statute," or in other words, where the NMB has committed "egregious error"
 
 
Section 19 of the current NMB representational manual spells out in unambiguous terms what is to occur in a merger situation. If they deviate from that, then you have a "plain" an or "egregious error" on the part of the NMB. 
 
As you say ... we will see.
 
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The NMB will follow Section 19.  If they choose the Association and grant them the new certificate without a vote and after Intervenor's fail to meet the showing of interest requirements (Yes AFMA will fail)  then that will be that. No one will get it reversed.
 
I am not saying how it will end up I am just saying whatever the decision is it will not be reversed.
 
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usairways_vote_NO said:
The NMB will follow Section 19.  If they choose the Association and grant them the new certificate without a vote and after Intervenor's fail to meet the showing of interest requirements (Yes AFMA will fail)  then that will be that. No one will get it reversed.
 
I am not saying how it will end up I am just saying whatever the decision is it will not be reversed.
 
You claim the NMB will follow Section 19 then follow that with your speculation on events that most certainly will violate section 19.
 
If the NMB grants the alliance certification without a membership vote then it is indeed a violation of Section 19. 
 
Where has the alliance made a showing of interest? How does it merit certification without that showing?
 
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You are trying to put words in my mouth. I am not speculating on what the specific outcome will be except to say that whatever the NMB rules will stand.
 
I used the example because I know that is the one that you and the AMFA supporters are so afraid of.
 
It is your interpretation of the rules that say the NMB can't rule that way. Maybe they can maybe they can't. But I know one thing if they do rule for the Association without a vote it will stand and I will take their interpretation over yours or a bunch of AMFA supporters everyday of the week.
 
 
Now in response to your questions.  If the NMB does rule for Association without a vote I would speculate that their reasoning might be the TWU is the only organization with over 50% showing of interest and would therefore be given the certificate if the Association wasn't formed. The TWU agrees to the Association with the IAM. So they allow it. I got no clue really why they would approve it but that is my take. One thing is for sure they will clearly state why they ruled the way the do and you won't have a chance in hell to overturn it.
 
The problem is frivolous lawsuit politic playing Peterson is likely to waste another pile of the locals money trying to stop it using Seham who by the way is getting quite a bit more wealthy eating up the locals money on loser cases.
 
Meanwhile the membership languishes while these guys keep things in the courts for years. They will keep it locked up in the court and everything will pass the membership by, and then they will blame their failures on everyone else but themselves.
 
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usairways_vote_NO said:
You are trying to put words in my mouth. I am not speculating on what the specific outcome will be except to say that whatever the NMB rules will stand.
 
I used the example because I know that is the one that you and the AMFA supporters are so afraid of.
 
It is your interpretation of the rules that say the NMB can't rule that way. Maybe they can maybe they can't. But I know one thing if they do rule for the Association without a vote it will stand and I will take their interpretation over yours or a bunch of AMFA supporters everyday of the week.
 
 
You need to spout the populist view, stay away from the truth or reasoned thought. They're like fox news viewers, they want to be told what they already think, and get upset when it doesn't happen.
 
AMFA is my preferred union, but I'm realastic enough to know that AMFA doesn't have the total support of mechs or political power to make it happen. It would be a huge gain for AMFA to get the largest airline mechanics in their ranks.
 
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I agree about the lawsuits being frivolous but if anyone tries to fight the NMB ruling it will be resolved expediently in the NMB's favor. I seriously doubt anyone will fight their ruling anyway. It is all huff and puff posturing IMO. Maybe they think they can affect the NMB's decision process. Who knows
 
If the Teamsters, after getting enough cards, couldn't win their election at US there is no way that AMFA could win an election at the old AA let alone the new one when they haven't after so many times had enough cards and they still don't have enough. Write-in? Pipe dream.
 
usairways_vote_NO said:
You are trying to put words in my mouth. I am not speculating on what the specific outcome will be except to say that whatever the NMB rules will stand.
 
I used the example because I know that is the one that you and the AMFA supporters are so afraid of.
 
It is your interpretation of the rules that say the NMB can't rule that way. Maybe they can maybe they can't. But I know one thing if they do rule for the Association without a vote it will stand and I will take their interpretation over yours or a bunch of AMFA supporters everyday of the week.
 
 
Now in response to your questions.  If the NMB does rule for Association without a vote I would speculate that their reasoning might be the TWU is the only organization with over 50% showing of interest and would therefore be given the certificate if the Association wasn't formed. The TWU agrees to the Association with the IAM. So they allow it. I got no clue really why they would approve it but that is my take. One thing is for sure they will clearly state why they ruled the way the do and you won't have a chance in hell to overturn it.
 
I'm not putting words in your mouth, its your example. I'm just pointing out where its flawed in relation to the rules as published.
 
Further, as much as you and others would like to make this out to be strictly an AMFA thing, it most assuredly is not.  There are many in the TWU who don't like AMFA but aren't pulling for this alliance, the same can be said for many on the US side. 
 
In counter to your speculation, I would submit that while the TWU could indeed provide a showing of more than 50% that doesn't constitute a 50%+ endorsement for the alliance.    If the NMB tries to certify the alliance without a vote of the membership, and/or associated intervention period per rule,  there will be a legal challenge from one or more of the interested parties be it AMFA, TWU or IAM. 
 
Indeed, in the end, the NMB decision may not be overturned, but rest assured someone will try
 
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usairways_vote_NO said:
If the Teamsters, after getting enough cards, couldn't win their election at US there is no way that AMFA could win an election at the old AA let alone the new one when they haven't after so many times had enough cards and they still don't have enough. Write-in? Pipe dream.
 
For a guy that has never been through a AMFA card drive at AA, and is clueless as to what happened - you sound pretty cocky.  Lets put it this way, if it were not for the TWU & AA management trying to include retired, or dead voters, along with management types in the eligibility ranks of AA M&R - we would already be AMFA.  That was missed by less than 50 cards.  Given the track record of your IAM heros, and the TWU International, nobody I work around has any confidence in this abortion known as the JCBA.!  As long as thats the case, AMFA will always be a threat to your one size fits all dues collection organizations. 
Both the TWU & IAM are a disgrace to AMTs systemwide.
 
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Yes you are putting words in my mouth. Again I was not speculating on what will happen. I gave an example of what could happen. You can point all you want but If the NMB rules for the Association and no vote then your interpretation is flawed.
 
You are right it isn't just a AMFA thing.
 
Again I am not speculating on what the NMB will rule. Maybe what you submit is right but if the NMB rules the Association is certified without a vote then you are wrong and you and nobody else will be able to do anything about it except lose a lawsuit if it even goes that far.
 
In the end the NMB will not be overturned in any ruling they make.
 
Full Disclosure  I can't stand the TWU, IAM, AMFA, IBT or The Association and don't care who goes in because they all stink. But in my opinion AMFA would be the worse choice.
 
 
Actually Vortilon I know quite a bit about how AMFA screwed up. But what have I disclosed on here to be told I am clueless? What have I said on here that makes you believe that the IAM or TWU are my heros?
 
You sound clueless about the process of being certified. You say that because AMFA failed to get enough cards they were conspired against and if they had 50 more cards would be on the property. Sounds like you don't know that is just the first step. Um how about an election first? You couldn't even get enough cards and you say you would have won? LOL ok sure ya would have.
 
AMFA is a disgrace. They can't get cards in on time and then try to skirt the rules and when AMFA is ruled against their supporters say it is a big conspiracy and unfair. WAH WAH WAH
 
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ThirdSeatHero said:
 
I'm not putting words in your mouth, its your example. I'm just pointing out where its flawed in relation to the rules as published.
 
Further, as much as you and others would like to make this out to be strictly an AMFA thing, it most assuredly is not.  There are many in the TWU who don't like AMFA but aren't pulling for this alliance, the same can be said for many on the US side. 
 
In counter to your speculation, I would submit that while the TWU could indeed provide a showing of more than 50% that doesn't constitute a 50%+ endorsement for the alliance.    If the NMB tries to certify the alliance without a vote of the membership, and/or associated intervention period per rule,  there will be a legal challenge from one or more of the interested parties be it AMFA, TWU or IAM. 
 
Indeed, in the end, the NMB decision may not be overturned, but rest assured someone will try
It ain't gonna happen......There is a case prescidence on this issue that is online but I'm not going to do any homework for you since you still wouldn't believe it anyway.....Association will survive till JCBA and then its up to the AFLCIO if they want to permit further actions......
 
Vortilon said:
 
For a guy that has never been through a AMFA card drive at AA, and is clueless as to what happened - you sound pretty cocky.  Lets put it this way, if it were not for the TWU & AA management trying to include retired, or dead voters, along with management types in the eligibility ranks of AA M&R - we would already be AMFA.  That was missed by less than 50 cards.  Given the track record of your IAM heros, and the TWU International, nobody I work around has any confidence in this abortion known as the JCBA.!  As long as thats the case, AMFA will always be a threat to your one size fits all dues collection organizations. 
Both the TWU & IAM are a disgrace to AMTs systemwide.
Spend that $$$$ .....BTW - 50 cards is nothing to sink more $$ into....it's a dead issue