Totally Disgusted

410OhOne

Advanced
Dec 30, 2002
143
0
Just flew a non-rev trip this holiday weekend and had a chance to visit with some prior TWA senior flight attendants. The converstation made me totally sick to the point it became a conversation piece with my wife and kids during our vacation. How many thousands of TWA flight attendants are on the street in order for more inexperienced flight attendants from AA to keep their jobs. Stop!!! Dont give that BS about seniority and arbitration and any other communist, socialistic programs you preach. There are girls and guys still working who don''t even have talking rights compared to the experience and level of competence on the street now. Stop!!! I dont want to here about seniority. Senoirity is a number, a number that represents only how long your miserable, due paying, pine riding, sorry getting by self has been paying your monthly membership in a club quickly dwindling down every year. Organized labor is down to less than 13% of the total workforce in the U.S. There was a time and place, about 1920. I can''t wait for the day to here about a court ruling overturning your system of total bull#@$%, and the right people are put back in place.
410OhOne
AA Maint Tech
 
B

bagsmasher

Guest
I guess it depends on your point of view. I look at it as though if AA hadn't made the terrible mistake of buying TWA, 100% of the TWA F/A's would currently be on the street. Both senerios are bad, but the current one is better than the other.
 

xsqueezeme

Member
Sep 8, 2002
43
0
ok, no mention of seniority...just four little words:

LAST IN, FIRST OUT.

always been that way, always will be that way.
 

flydcoop

Senior
Dec 3, 2002
281
0
St. Louis
410OhOne,

It's interesting that what you are suggesting is completely opposite of Ayn Rand's philosophy. i.e. years of experience equals competency and ability to perform the required duties of F/A.

Based on the Darwinistic ideas in "Atlas Shrugged" (only the strongest and brighest survive; mediocrity and the weak fall in a perfect world), what does this say about TWA on it's own? So here you are advocating a "handout" which would make the originally born Alice Rosenbaum, roll over in her grave!

Time will tell if AA survives, I've made my decision to stay until the end, I accept that no matter what happens.

I wish there was not a single flight attendant was on the street but I have my beliefs as do others...time will only tell.

For you to imply that a 25 year F/A with another airline has more "experience" than I do with 7 years in 4 different departments with THIS airline is rather myopic, don't you think?

Furthermore, for you to seemingly attack the APFA workforce as being "lazy drones" (my interpretation) is unconscionable unless you have talked to all 24,000 of us (including furloughees). I have flown with excellent and horrid F/As of all seniorities. I imagine you can say the same about your fellow mechanics.

A is A, I guess [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif']
 
C

coldplay

Guest
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/16/2003 10:42:23 PM 410OhOne wrote:

Just flew a non-rev trip this holiday weekend and had a chance to visit with some prior TWA senior flight attendants.

----------------
[/blockquote]


and I'm guessing that when you started working at AA way back when, that you went ahead of the people before you?

listen, instead of being disgusted with us lowly FAs of so little years experience, why not channel that energy into being disgusted at a certain CEO, with the initals DC, who had his airline pay off 3 passengers of an oversold flight $500 each (oh the limit for agents to hand out is $300, anything else needs Management approval) so that he could get onboard and have himself a sunny ole vacation in Puerto Vallarta last feb. 14? Plus the UM fee for employees? I don't see him ever paying for this "fee" he had installed recently, to have his under 16yr old stepchild travel alone, BUT this is the same guy pleading poverty, asking the workgroups (including yours) for concessions and that we need to tighten our belts, and insist that he and management are in this together equally. That's funny, the last time i flew non-rev to a sunny spot to get away from all this cold weather, I didn't see agents scrambling and handing out $500 to paying customers just so I could get a First Class seat to PVR, and i had to pay an unaccompanied minor fee for my kid when she went to visit grandma.

if you don't believe me, then why don't you hop on over to DFW tonight gate A17 around 7pm, when he and his family returns from this mini vacation, and ask him yourself?
 

RV4

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
1,885
80
www.usaviation.com
Question!!!

How were the AirCal Flight Attendants handled in regards to their seniority?

I know the TWU DOVETAILED Mechanics and Groundworkers.

Just wondering what the FLight Attendants did back then?
 
OP
4

410OhOne

Advanced
Dec 30, 2002
143
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/17/2003 2:14:18 AM flydcoop wrote:

410OhOne,

It's interesting that what you are suggesting is completely opposite of Ayn Rand's philosophy. i.e. years of experience equals competency and ability to perform the required duties of F/A.

Furthermore, for you to seemingly attack the APFA workforce as being "lazy drones" (my interpretation) is unconscionable unless you have talked to all 24,000 of us (including furloughees). I have flown with excellent and horrid F/As of all seniorities. I imagine you can say the same about your fellow mechanics.



A is A, I guess
----------------
[/blockquote]

FlyDCoop,

I sincerely appreciate your wisdoms in the works of the great Ayn Rand. Atlas Shrugged should be on the shelves of everyone. Please, I am not attacking one work group in particular, I am attacking them all. John Galt promised "to stop the motor of the world". I promise to "stop the motor of the aviation industry".

With regards to seniority, "It's the way it is and will stay the way it is". BS. How about this round of layoffs we look for the people, like yourself, with 7 years exp in four different departments. I do agree, you have a lot to offer the company. No argument here. In fact I commend you. My beef with senoirity is the fact a number rules. Should I have just dropped out of high school, quickly tested for a GED, met the work experience rules for the FAA aircraft mechanics license with a local maintenance shop or served in the military? With that I would have entered your industry at less than 19 years old. Think of the seniority I would have had to today. This my friend is what Ayn Rand argues against. I have an education, a sheep skin on the wall, a desire to learn and experience, as do you, in other departments in this company. When the pinks slips start flying is anyone going to look at that? NO, what is your occupational? BS.

How about a system of merit? Sure seniority would count for something, but lets look at the total individual.

As the youth and future of this company walk out the door, how many dirt bags, trash and people of incompetence, that should have been put out the door long ago, do they pass by on the way to the parking lot?
 

planemech669

Member
Aug 20, 2002
74
0
GSW/LAW
www.linkedin.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/17/2003 2:14:18 AM flydcoop wrote:

410OhOne,

It's interesting that what you are suggesting is completely opposite of Ayn Rand's philosophy. i.e. years of experience equals competency and ability to perform the required duties of F/A.

Based on the Darwinistic ideas in "Atlas Shrugged" (only the strongest and brighest survive; mediocrity and the weak fall in a perfect world), what does this say about TWA on it's own? So here you are advocating a "handout" which would make the originally born Alice Rosenbaum, roll over in her grave!

Time will tell if AA survives, I've made my decision to stay until the end, I accept that no matter what happens.

I wish there was not a single flight attendant was on the street but I have my beliefs as do others...time will only tell.

For you to imply that a 25 year F/A with another airline has more "experience" than I do with 7 years in 4 different departments with THIS airline is rather myopic, don't you think?

Furthermore, for you to seemingly attack the APFA workforce as being "lazy drones" (my interpretation) is unconscionable unless you have talked to all 24,000 of us (including furloughees). I have flown with excellent and horrid F/As of all seniorities. I imagine you can say the same about your fellow mechanics.

A is A, I guess [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]

Compentancy through longevity(i.e. senority) is a myth that has been propagated but who else but the unions. It is not a hard fact. Competancy is gained through experience and dedication to ones profession, not by simply being a hold on hold out. Longevity is what unions promote since it's from the most senior workers that they collect the most dues. If a skills qualification measurement is what pushed a person up the ladder instead of seniority, it would be a very different industry now. I know this because it is watching the most senior of my craft do so little that disgusts me because I know that I won't be able to make a difference until they retire or die and even then there will be someone else that is higher on the seniority ladder that will say "I'm senior to you, the job's mine" even if he can't even spell "airplane".
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/14.gif']
 

DFWCC

Senior
Aug 19, 2002
430
0
DFW
Visit site
How about seniority gained 1 day at a time means loyalty. Maybe a high "C" didn't jump from airline to airline for a perk here or 40 to 50 cents more there. When we all started we knew "Senior Rity" rules. The company says after 20+ yrs of no wkds and no holidays off and maybe stuck on 2nd shift, You now have paid your dues and you can get a Fri/Sat off. Oh! you're 52 and your not as young as the young buck we hired yesterday. Well, you have been loyal and there is another job you can do bec we know your back has given out due to the heavy bags our customers want to fly with. If you have enough loyalty [read seniority], we have a lighter work load job for you.
Thats what seniority is "paying your dues upfront.
Let me also add here on the DFW ramp. We have a lot of sheepskins. There is 1 mayor I know of. I also know a Chiropractor [maybe he's looking for more patients]. There is also a judge, a geologist many ex-school teachers and myriad of other sheepskin carrying professionals working the ramp.
 
B

bagsmasher

Guest
Let me also add here on the DFW ramp. We have a lot of sheepskins. There is 1 mayor I know of. I also know a Chiropractor . There is also a judge, a geologist many ex-school teachers and myriad of other sheepskin carrying professionals working the ramp.


DFWCC,
I know a FSC at DFW that sold his business, and now lives in a 7500 sq. ft. house in Southlake that he had built, and paid cash for it.
 

flydcoop

Senior
Dec 3, 2002
281
0
St. Louis
I agree with all on the value of merit and competency, however, this company is not run by John Galts.

I spent a miserable 1-1/2 years in management and have never been so disgusted in my life. Politics, creating jobs for "dead weight", et al. When the RIF hit, it was the best and brightest on the street.

This company is too management-heavy, managers for managers? C'mon!

Coldplay is absolutely correct about paying vouchers to downgrade revenue for A2/A4/A6 pax travellers. Find someone with a RES code and see N*Codes. Recently, a DFW agent told me they paid $7,000 in vouchers in one day to accomodate Execs and their families. This, in my mind, is compAAny theft...call Corporate Security! God only knows what other wasteful and costly perks they possess. I don't care if they are confirmed Coach and upgraded if available but DO NOT DENY REVENUE.

My "Utopia" would be run by engineers, mechanics, and designers...people who CREATE, ACT, and SOLVE PROBLEMS. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We exist in a world of number-crunchers and "the bottom line" which is where unions come in.

Our corporate structure cares not for competency or merit, if they could avoid paying "top dollar" for experience just to get by, they would. I've seen too many "witch-hunts" in my non-union positions where "someone HAD to be BLAMED or FIRED", no matter their merit, years of experience, etc...they simply had no protection.

Yes, it often seems unions protect "bad eggs" but if ANYONE can pull this company through the "dark clouds to the sunny skies of 33,000 feet (cheesy, yes, but one of the coolest perks of my profession[:)), it is the "grunts" of this company.

We have the biggest stake in this, not the "golden parachute" Execs sitting on numerous other boards.

We need a leader who cares and thirsts for the challenge, not "what they can take away from this".

I believe there was a Japanese company structure that paid SET wages to all, everything above and beyond was bonuses and profit sharing, Top/Down. Everyone was important in that structure. That gives everyone a stake, doesn't it? I believe it also fostered the fiercest loyalty ever. I am loyal to my brand, not my upper management. I will do everything possible to ensure a passenger comes back. I don't feel they think the same way.

Please, on another thread, it is mechanics VS. ramp...STOP IT! I don't expect to make as much as a pilot, yet I am the final barrier at that door, the "sacrificial lamb" so-to-speak. Everyone in this company serves a vital purpose. Learn their jobs. That's what I spend half of my time explaining. I hate hearing "those agents...blah-blah", I can explain those agents, having been one. I worked with the ramp as a manager, so many hard-working, genuinely GOOD people. I agree that mechanics are more skilled (and under-appreciated unless something goes wrong) but let's stick together!

I'm proud that my union, the APFA, told AA they would work with them on concessions, but not permanently. We've been down this road before.

No more AA kool-aid, FULL-Disclosure. I work with too many amazing and brilliant people.

The airlines chose us, not vice-versa. So many of us have many other "money-making" opportunities. I had a PLT pax tell me to find another job recently. I looked at him and said, "I come to work and I don't hate it! I look forward to it!". I swear I saw jealousy in his face! I love to work and I will never hate coming to my job again...I also know my worth. My fav thing is a "world-weary" traveller" leaving a plane, telling me what a great time he had! No, not THAT way! I'm Southern, hysterical, and damn entertaining! When people leave the plane smilng, I've done my job!

Ironically, I had planned on being an A/C Mechanic...I spent time on the ramp and really missed the "people". I "fell" into my current position, you know what? I'm damn good at it!
 

Buck

Veteran
Contributor
Aug 20, 2002
7,320
1,576
www.fairtax.org
DFWCC,
I know a FSC at DFW that sold his business, and now lives in a 7500 sq. ft. house in Southlake that he had built, and paid cash for it.

bagsmasher
--------------------------------------------
Did he get busted for trafficking yet?
 

j7915

Senior
Sep 7, 2002
423
0
[blockquote]----------------On 2/17/2003 10:39:50 AM planemech669 wrote: [blockquote]
----------------
On 2/17/2003 2:14:18 AM flydcoop wrote:

410OhOne,

It's interesting that what you are suggesting is completely opposite of Ayn Rand's philosophy. i.e. years of experience equals competency and ability to perform the required duties of F/A.

Based on the Darwinistic ideas in "Atlas Shrugged" (only the strongest and brighest survive; mediocrity and the weak fall in a perfect world), what does this say about TWA on it's own? So here you are advocating a "handout" which would make the originally born Alice Rosenbaum, roll over in her grave!

Time will tell if AA survives, I've made my decision to stay until the end, I accept that no matter what happens.

I wish there was not a single flight attendant was on the street but I have my beliefs as do others...time will only tell.

For you to imply that a 25 year F/A with another airline has more "experience" than I do with 7 years in 4 different departments with THIS airline is rather myopic, don't you think?

Furthermore, for you to seemingly attack the APFA workforce as being "lazy drones" (my interpretation) is unconscionable unless you have talked to all 24,000 of us (including furloughees). I have flown with excellent and horrid F/As of all seniorities. I imagine you can say the same about your fellow mechanics.

A is A, I guess [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]

Compentancy through longevity(i.e. senority) is a myth that has been propagated but who else but the unions. It is not a hard fact. Competancy is gained through experience and dedication to ones profession, not by simply being a hold on hold out. Longevity is what unions promote since it's from the most senior workers that they collect the most dues. If a skills qualification measurement is what pushed a person up the ladder instead of seniority, it would be a very different industry now. I know this because it is watching the most senior of my craft do so little that disgusts me because I know that I won't be able to make a difference until they retire or die and even then there will be someone else that is higher on the seniority ladder that will say "I'm senior to you, the job's mine" even if he can't even spell "airplane".
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/14.gif'] ----------------[/blockquote]
VP Plaskett who went on to PanAm and has since dropped out of sight, once wrote a memo, I had a copy, concerning the payscale for F/a, but it applies equally to anyone else, he essentially said that after 2-4 years a F/a would not get any more skillfull, so the pay scale should essentially be adjusted according to whether you are still on a learning curve or whether the curve has flattened out.

The military has the same setup, an E5 with 16? or 18? years is topped out and the only way to get a raise is by getting promoted.
 

DFWCC

Senior
Aug 19, 2002
430
0
DFW
Visit site
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/17/2003 5:36:11 PM Buck wrote:

DFWCC,
I know a FSC at DFW that sold his business, and now lives in a 7500 sq. ft. house in Southlake that he had built, and paid cash for it.

bagsmasher
--------------------------------------------
Did he get busted for trafficking yet?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Buck, I don't know this person. I am sure bagmasher says he knows this individual.
 
B

bagsmasher

Guest
DFWCC,
What is the bottom FT seniority at DFW now? He may have got laid off.
 

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