TWA ers Thankful for Jobs?

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TWAFA007

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Aloha & Yasoo,
Posted on Tue, Aug. 27, 2002 Kansas City Star
LABOR SCENE: Former TWA employees cry foul
By RANDOLPH HEASTER
Columnist
American Airlines made assurances to Missouri State and local officials that its latest cutbacks would not disproportionately affect American employees in Missouri.
However, because of the way union seniority issues were settled after American bought Trans World Airlines, ex-TWA pilots and flight attendants will face the brunt of the layoffs in their employee groups.
Possibly 900 to 950 former TWA flight attendants could be laid off as a result of American's announcement earlier this month to reduce flights and staff, said Julia Bishop-Cross, an American spokeswoman in St. Louis.
In addition, up to 550 former TWA pilots may end up on furlough under the restructuring plan, she said.
Unlike ex-TWA mechanics working in St. Louis and Kansas City, the former TWA pilots and flight attendants now working for American went to the bottom of their seniority lists. That means they began ac***ulating seniority for American in April 2001, which would put their status below most American employees.
On the other hand, ex-TWA mechanics, stock clerks and fleet service workers who work in Kansas City and St. Louis were allowed to keep their seniority ac***ulated at TWA because of an arbitrator's ruling. In addition, American said earlier this month that its latest cutbacks won't affect its maintenance operations.
About 1,000 former TWA flight attendants were furloughed last October after American and other major airlines made cutbacks after Sept. 11. A layoff of an additional 900 to 950 would mean that only 2,300 or fewer ex-TWA flight attendants would remain at American, said Sherry Cooper, a former Machinists union official for TWA's flight attendants unit. American's flight attendants are represented by the Association of Professional Flight Attendants.
We will have lost nearly half of our work force since October, she said. Less than 2 percent of American's flight attendants have been laid off. That's not proportionate.
Cooper said particularly irksome is that American is continuing to operate what were once key TWA routes but not using the former TWA flight attendants on those flights.
Another layoff of 550 former TWA pilots would mean that 859, or 40 percent of the total number of ex-TWA pilots, will be on layoff, said Glenn Stieneke, a former union official for the TWA unit of the Air Line Pilots Association. American's pilots belong to the Allied Pilots Association.
As for American's pilots, Stieneke said the latest layoff will mean that a total of 386 will be out of work, or 4 percent of that group.
As you can see, the balance is way out of whack, he said.
Bishop-Cross of American said that the numbers of ex-TWA pilots affected this time could be mitigated depending on the number of older pilots who accept what the company calls a bridge-to-retirement option.
Senior American and ex-TWA pilots a year away from retiring will be offered pay for that year without working. Those who accept will then retire after that year is completed with their benefits intact, Bishop-Cross said.
For flight attendants, American is offering one-year, unpaid leaves of absence and early retirement options to try to reduce the number of involuntary layoffs, Bishop-Cross said.
Cooper, the former TWA union representative, said the ex-TWA flight attendants are continuing to fight for their seniority rights through a federal lawsuit in New York.

So I guess the feeble arguement for the APFA stapling of TWA F/As was that we are, lucky to have jobs, doesnt hold much water now. When you have APFA members, like Mikey, saying that bidding/occupational seniority, doesnt really matter, well try telling that to the 50% of the TWA F/As that will be out of a job because of it. Having nearly 50% of the TWA F/As out of a job and less than 2% of the AA F/As, is not fair, equitable, or equally shared as promised. Not by anyones book.
ALOHA, 007
 

DLFlyer31

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Aug 20, 2002
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Having nearly 50% of the TWA F/As out of a job and less than 2% of the AA F/As, is not fair, equitable, or equally shared as promised. Not by anyones book.

When is a Union not a Union?

ALOHA, 007
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I usually stay out of posts like this because they are generally nasty and lead no where positive. But here's two cents from a person with no personal connections to either AA or TWA.

If AA had not bought TWA, TWA would likely have gone BK soon after or at the latest Sept 12, 2001. So, then instead of having 50% of TWA F/A's unemployed...you would have 100%. I am not denying that some of AA's actions may not be equitable or fair...but as my mother used to always say, "Nobody said life is fair."

If the TWA'ers feel so distraught over AA's treatment, then maybe its time to move on (I hear WN and AAI are hiring). I know, I know the whole seniority thing....but to be honest, TWA was a sinking ship long before AA ever entered the picture. The F/A's (especially the more junior ones) and all other groups had plenty of opportunities to move on and plenty of warning of what was coming. Some did in fact leave and some stayed. Unfortunately, for those who stayed things didn't work out quite as planned which is sad indeed. But we all make choices that we have to live with.

I don't mean to sound callous but the constant bickering between AA and TWA has grown old.
 
OP
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TWAFA007

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On 9/4/2002 1:46:33 PM DLFlyer31 wrote:

If AA had not bought TWA, TWA would likely have gone BK soon after or at the latest Sept 12, 2001. So, then instead of having 50% of TWA F/A's unemployed...you would have 100%. I am not denying that some of AA's actions may not be equitable or fair...but as my mother used to always says, Nobody said life is fair.

If the TWA'ers feel so distraught over AA's treatment, then maybe its time to move on (I hear WN and AAI are hiring). I know, I know the whole seniority thing....but to be honest, TWA was a sinking ship long before AA ever entered the picture. The F/A's (especially the more junior ones) and all other groups had plenty of opportunities to move on and plenty of warning of what was coming. Some did in fact leave and some stayed. Unfortunately, for those who stayed things didn't work out quite as planned which is sad indeed. But we all make choices that we have to live with.

I don't mean to sound callous but the constant bickering between AA and TWA has grown old.

Aloha DLFlyer31,

To say that 100% of TWA F/As would be unemployed if TWA went bankrupt is a bit of a stretch. TWA had gone bankrupt twice before with out major lost of jobs. U just went bankrupt, didnt see major lay offs there. Look how CAL came out of bankrupcy. When UAL goes bankrupt, expect the same. That old arguement is weak at best. Life is fair, no disrespect to your Mother, but everything does work out and does balance. The point is this has nothing to do with fairness. It has everything to do with contracts and the laws of the land. This will be decided in court and they will decide what is fair. Nothing said on this board will matter.

It does sound a bit, callous, when you say that TWA F/As that stayed on trying to do the best they could to make TWA work were just stupid. AS you said there was plenty of warning. They should have just moved on, jumped ship,especially the junior ones. Did you know that the average seniority at TWA was nearly 25 years? What junior ones? I had 16 years and was one of the most junior TWA FSMs. Ya, if we all had crystal balls life would aways be fair.

As far as being distraught, hardly, the TWA F/As are a tuff bunch and we have been through worse. We are happy to be part of the AA Family and do a great job. We are not going anywhere. There are just two different opinions of what is fair here. When that happens in America the courts will decide what is fair and both sides agree to bide by it. No hard feelings. Its the American Way. JUSTICE FOR ALL !!!

ALOHA, 007
 

FrugalFlyer

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Aug 20, 2002
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I also tend to stay out from these employee debates and let the unions and employees fight it out.

But as a customer, I will say that there will come a point in this arguement where the customer(s) will just become too irritated by all this childish behaviour and take their business elesewhere. Some customers are already getting too tired of hearing the TWA people say: "AMR bought TWA and threw the employees on the street but then when all the TW employees were homeless the mean and nasty AA employees came and stole the goodies from the TW people's shopping carts." Likewise, come customers are sick and tired of AA people saying: "TWA people are trying to steal my job." The more this infighting is presented in the media or perpetuated by disgruntled employees the more customers will stay away. There will the business passanger who will just not spend his/her money on an airline with employee problems and there will also be the leisure traveler who will not buy her ticket for Thanksgiving travel (to see family )on an ailine that has employee problems. At this time I don't think AA can afford to lose any business, be it high yield or leisure.
 

FA Mikey

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----------------
On 9/4/2002 1:14:22 PM

Aloha & Yasoo,

Posted on Tue, Aug. 27, 2002 Kansas City Star

LABOR SCENE: Former TWA employees cry foul
By RANDOLPH HEASTER
Columnist

American Airlines made assurances to Missouri State and local officials that its latest cutbacks would not disproportionately affect American employees in Missouri.

However, because of the way union seniority issues were settled after American bought Trans World Airlines, ex-TWA pilots and flight attendants will face the brunt of the layoffs in their employee groups.
I guess they forgot to mention that of the TW assests that AA took on. They have since retired all the 717's and 767-200's now all the 767-300's. That no employees in these groups are yet trained and able to be cross utilized. I love the way it says, Because of the way union seniority issues were settled. As though we were all part of the same union. Instead the employees from 3 times bankrupt, TW were from IAM and ALPA. There counter parts at AA are represented by the APFA and APA. Since, No TW employee was a member at the time that all this happened. It would be unethical for either union to negotiate for their representation and benefit at the expense of the unions current members and their wishes.
TWAFA007:possibly 900 to 950 former TWA flight attendants could be laid off as a result of American's announcement earlier this month to reduce flights and staff, said Julia Bishop-Cross, an American spokeswoman in St. Louis.
I might possibly win the lotto to night. The odds are about the same as seeing all 950 LLC flight attendants being laid off. We have no idea the number of people who will be affected. Not until the leaves and partnerships have been awarded. But I guess in the typical TW blowhard fashion. That makes for a less spectacular article.
TWAFA007:In addition, up to 550 former TWA pilots may end up on furlough under the restructuring plan, she said.

Unlike ex-TWA mechanics working in St. Louis and Kansas City, the former TWA pilots and flight attendants now working for American went to the bottom of their seniority lists. That means they began ac***ulating seniority for American in April 2001, which would put their status below most American employees.
It starts them the day that they started at AA. Just like me and 100,000 others here. Its hard for us AAer's to understand. Why you all should be treated better than those who cose AA as a carrer. We all stared at the bottom. We didn't walk in on our first day and demand that we get seniority over the current employees equal to service we had at another company. Guess it takes a different type of person to do that. On top of all that, then to sue and try to bankrupt the comapny and unions who offered you jobs and pay increases.
TWAFA007: On the other hand, ex-TWA mechanics, stock clerks and fleet service workers who work in Kansas City and St. Louis were allowed to keep their seniority ac***ulated at TWA because of an arbitrator's ruling. In addition, American said earlier this month that its latest cutbacks won't affect its maintenance operations.
Truth is That a percent of the TW ramp people got to get up to 25% of there seniority from bankrupt TW. Since all all the f/a's and pilots are in STL. They would be getting even more than what the lazy TWU gave away in seniority rights to the newhire TWA people.
TWAFA007:About 1,000 former TWA flight attendants were furloughed last October after American and other major airlines made cutbacks after Sept. 11. A layoff of an additional 900 to 950 would mean that only 2,300 or fewer ex-TWA flight attendants would remain at American, said Sherry Cooper, a former Machinists union official for TWA's flight attendants unit. American's flight attendants are represented by the Association of Professional Flight Attendants.
FA Mikey:Sherry is a little free and easy with the numbers. No 950 will not be laid off. No, not a thousand were laid off prior.
TWAFA007:"We will have lost nearly half of our work force since October," she said. "Less than 2 percent of American's flight attendants have been laid off. That's not proportionate."
Poor Ms Cooper who manages to give over estimates of the number of TW people who are on lay off and voluntary leave's. But then in the next breath can only manage a percent of the rest of the flight attendants. What a great represenitive, and local base chair. I see her plan is to screw everyone and thing for her own intrest of gaining seniority that she and the IAM signed off. For her and her buddy's.
TWAFA007:
Cooper said particularly irksome is that American is continuing to operate what were once key TWA routes but not using the former TWA flight attendants on those flights.
FA Mikey:I guess MS cooper thinks it would be better to keep the 2 groups separate until such time as it benefits her and her group. She is fine with the pay job protections, and all the company has to offer. She and her group feel though they shuld be insulated from any type of layoff. These are our routes? I wonder Ms Cooper since AA is dropping several types of EQ from the LLC side. Should we also send AA type planes over so your group can continue to fly your key TW routes. Would you be happier if you kept your old pay rates and contract. The dice were thrown. IAM signed off on your seniority. Guess you forgot that in the talking points for the article. Again it does nothing for the local sympathy factor. Again as for key routes. As both carriers formerly operated many overlapping routes. Whats makes something key for each. How do we judge? Say, we judge by who made more money on a given route. That would say who operated or managed it better. Would be the one who would hold a greater value to a route as well. Since AA has made billions over the last few years and TW was in and out of bankruptcy. I say AA is better situated to take control.
TWAFA007:Another layoff of 550 former TWA pilots would mean that 859, or 40 percent of the total number of ex-TWA pilots, will be on layoff, said Glenn Stieneke, a former union official for the TWA unit of the Air Line Pilots Association. American's pilots belong to the Allied Pilots Association.

As for American's pilots, Stieneke said the latest layoff will mean that a total of 386 will be out of work, or 4 percent of that group.

"As you can see, the balance is way out of whack," he said.
FA Mikey:AAer's don't understand why after buying up the assets of bankrupt TW offering jobs to almost every employee. That we should sholder the brunt of layoffs so you all can live the sweet life. With our contracts, protections pay rates and schedules.
TWAFA007:Bishop-Cross of American said that the numbers of ex-TWA pilots affected this time could be mitigated depending on the number of older pilots who accept what the company calls a "bridge-to-retirement" option.
FA Mikey:Full pay for a year with out coming to work. Let me cry for the LLCer's. You must hate working here. I guess since AA has had to shrink because of losses means nothing. That they have retired planes on both sides. That either group can not yet fly the others, means nothing. No more 717, 762 and soon 763. We also saw the loss of the 727, MD11,and soon the F100.
TWAFA007:Senior American and ex-TWA pilots a year away from retiring will be offered pay for that year without working. Those who accept will then retire after that year is completed with their benefits intact, Bishop-Cross said.

For flight attendants, American is offering one-year, unpaid leaves of absence and early retirement options to try to reduce the number of involuntary layoffs, Bishop-Cross said.

Cooper, the former TWA union representative, said the ex-TWA flight attendants are continuing to fight for their seniority rights through a federal lawsuit in New York.
FA MIkey:Sherry Cooper being no stranger to law suits and screwing unions. Her goal now is to get the seniority her precious IAM signed away. Then bankrupt the union at the airline who bought the assests of her bankrupt carrier.
TWAFA007:So I guess the feeble arguement for the APFA stapling of TWA F/As was that we are, "lucky to have jobs," doesnt hold much water now. When you have APFA members, like Mikey, saying that bidding/occupational seniority, "doesnt really matter", well try telling that to the 50% of the TWA F/As that will be out of a job because of it. Having nearly 50% of the TWA F/As out of a job and less than 2% of the AA F/As, is not fair, equitable, or equally shared as promised. Not by anyones book.
FA Mikey:Since 9/11 I would say you are very lucky to have a job, all of us are. If you had been working for TWA, there would be no need for the law suits and seniority arguements. It would be 20,000 out of work. How interesting you and MS Sherry(lawsuit) Cooper come up with this 50% number. You have no way of knowing how many if any will be laid off. Its also interesting to note. That the reason we have so many fewer on layoff. Is that our union has a article that protects us from that by offering leaves, and partnership/ shared line flying. Had the mighty IAM who signed off your seniority had one half as much of a contract. The number 883 laid off/volantary leaves at LLC would likely be less today. Its to bad you all feel the demise of TW was nothing more than AA and its unions. Had you been left alone you would all be doing fine. That is the biggest fairy tale of all.
 

bicaal

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When questioned under oath at the Senate Sub-committee Hearing, Don Carty admitted that it was under his suggestion that TWA filed bankruptcy. AMR and TWA were in merger talks for over a year. To cut Icahn out of the loop, an expedient bankruptcy process was initiated. TWA would have been given the 240 mil. based on their ASMs, that went into AMRs pockets after 9/11 from the gevernment's bailout of the airlines. I agree with the customer, this has created a monster that management must love. Pitting employee against employee, and letting the unions take the fall.
 

FA Mikey

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TWA also blew through a DIP loan almost twice that amount. In a matter 2 months. Then needed a second DIP loan to keep operating through the bankruptcy procedings. With losses, and running through money that fast. You honestly believe TW could have made it to 9/11. Then after having not made money through the greatest boom we have ever seen. Make money in the George Bush recession. With a 240 million goverment handout.

Maybe you could have applied for a goverment secured loan. Having to first to reduce costs. So how much more of a cut in pay, Would the employees be willing to take to secure a loan? When does the amount become to much? When does it get to the point, that changing jobs becomes unaviodable.
 
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bagsmasher

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TWAFA007, would you please state what you think would have been fair to all parties?

100% company seniority?
100% occupational seniority?
The vast majority of LLCer's going to the top of the seniority lists?
Is this what you truly believe would be fair, even to original AAer's?
 

FA Mikey

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Want an interesting anwser. Ask a formew TW person what they think. The ones who left and started over. I Have yet to talk to one who believes that anyone from TW deserves more than what they were given.
 
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bagsmasher

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The TWAer's I work with on the ramp are happy they have a job. And of course the IAM guys at MCIE and STL who got everything, should have nothing to gripe about.
 

FA Mikey

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[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 12:24:50 PM bicaal wrote:

I am not 007, but will throw in my two cents for what it is worth. First, most of the TWA f/as find it comical when asked what an AMR f/a who was previously TWA thinks about the staple. Of course they like it, most of those people crossed our picket line, and left TWA when the 3 year full term strikers came back.
What is fair? The courts will decide and we will abide by that decision.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Have yet to meet any TW scabs.
 

bicaal

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I am not 007, but will throw in my two cents for what it is worth. First, most of the TWA f/as find it comical when asked what an AMR f/a who was previously TWA thinks about the staple. Of course they like it, most of those people crossed our picket line, and left TWA when the 3 year full term strikers came back.
What is fair? The courts will decide and we will abide by that decision.
 

FrugalFlyer

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[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 8:42:28 AM bicaal wrote:

When questioned under oath at the Senate Sub-committee Hearing, Don Carty admitted that it was under his suggestion that TWA filed bankruptcy. AMR and TWA were in merger talks for over a year. To cut Icahn out of the loop, an expedient bankruptcy process was initiated. TWA would have been given the 240 mil. based on their ASMs, that went into AMRs pockets after 9/11 from the gevernment's bailout of the airlines. I agree with the customer, this has created a monster that management must love. Pitting employee against employee, and letting the unions take the fall.
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[/blockquote]

A bit off topic here, but I've always wondered why TWA and their lawyers were not bright enough to figure a way out of uncle Carl's grasp the way AMR used the bankryptcy laws?
Even if AMR had not bought TWA I find it hard to see how they would have survived post 9/11. Ichan's ticketing agreement was killing them as the company could not even post a profit during the best economic times of the 1990's.
 

Winglet

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1. TWA corporation was financially dead. In Feb nobody was even going to sell TWA corp fuel.
2. AMR bought the assets in a firesale on the courthouse steps.
3. Seniority was not AMR's to give. It contractually belonged to AA's unions. TWA Corp knew it. Sen Bond knew it. TWA employees knew it. The bankruptsy officials knew it. AMR knew it. And the AMR unions knew it.
4. To claim now that some vague verbal insinuation of a seniority integration favorable to TWA employees was violated is just so much political endrunning BS.
5. The TWA deal was only good for AMR if the capacity was needed right away, AND the economy held up. It wasn't, and it didn't.

The people that need to move on are the former TWA employees that want to drag seniority issues out ad naseum.
 
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bagsmasher

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AA itself set the standard for what it considered fair and equitable when it integrated the CSA's.
 
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