TWU International

proAMT

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Dec 3, 2005
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The TWU International has again proven it is the weak link.

Again it has a hand in bringing back still another concessionary contract.

After enormity of concessions the TWU International help bring back and scare the membership into approving in 2003 I didn't think the International would have the gall to sell us out again but I was very wrong.

It makes one wonder out loud if they are making money from both its members and the airline.

When Kevin and I are running the 514 it will be without the help of the weak link. We don't need them and don't want them.

There are already enough obstacles in the way of the working man without adding the TWU International.

How many times have they sold us down the river?

How many times have they promoted our officers mid-term at the expense of the membership?

The TWU International cares primarily about its own interests at the expense of the membership.
 
T

The Goose

Guest
The TWU International has again proven it is the weak link.

Again it has a hand in bringing back still another concessionary contract.

After enormity of concessions the TWU International help bring back and scare the membership into approving in 2003 I didn't think the International would have the gall to sell us out again but I was very wrong.

It makes one wonder out loud if they are making money from both its members and the airline.

When Kevin and I are running the 514 it will be without the help of the weak link. We don't need them and don't want them.

There are already enough obstacles in the way of the working man without adding the TWU International.

How many times have they sold us down the river?

How many times have they promoted our officers mid-term at the expense of the membership?

The TWU International cares primarily about its own interests at the expense of the membership.
Sorry - the weakest link is human nature, both heavily exploited by the company and its pet, the TWU. Unless you're not human, quit telling me how well things will be with you and Kevin in office. Unfortunately, you two do not possess any of the magical powers it would require to rid us of the real problems we face now as a labor group.

I've voted in every union election since I've worked at American and I've been nothing but disappointed in the low quality of "leadership" that's been elected time after time - elected to office with the sole intent of garnering favor with the International for an appointment as payment for selling a POS contract of something else for the company's benefit to the membership they were supposed to be representing.

I call BS and I'm tired of it.
 
OP
proAMT

proAMT

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Dec 3, 2005
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153
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Sorry - the weakest link is human nature, both heavily exploited by the company and its pet, the TWU. Unless you're not human, quit telling me how well things will be with you and Kevin in office. Unfortunately, you two do not possess any of the magical powers it would require to rid us of the real problems we face now as a labor group.

I've voted in every union election since I've worked at American and I've been nothing but disappointed in the low quality of "leadership" that's been elected time after time - elected to office with the sole intent of garnering favor with the International for an appointment as payment for selling a POS contract of something else for the company's benefit to the membership they were supposed to be representing.

I call BS and I'm tired of it.

I can guarantee you our sole intent is not garnering favor with the organization that has boo foo'd the workforce time and time again. We're as tired of the b.s. as you. We have identified a real problem here something other candidates don't have the nards to admit.

You can do nothing and let the next puppet in the gate or you can give us a little of your trust and help unravel the mess we're in.

You got to take a stand sometime and Kevin and I believe voting NO and turning down that POS contract and electing a local administration that is openly hostile to the organization from NYC that undermines its workers every contract is the first step.

Your call Goose
 
T

The Goose

Guest
I can guarantee you our sole intent is not garnering favor with the organization that has boo foo'd the workforce time and time again. We're as tired of the b.s. as you. We have identified a real problem here something other candidates don't have the nards to admit.

You can do nothing and let the next puppet in the gate or you can give us a little of your trust and help unravel the mess we're in.

You got to take a stand sometime and Kevin and I believe voting NO and turning down that POS contract and electing a local administration that is openly hostile to the organization from NYC that undermines its workers every contract is the first step.

Your call Goose

My call on what? I think you must be smoking good dope and I also think you, like every other human on the planet, has his or her price. You do not live next door to the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus.

My intent (as soon as I verify what the published "lowlights" have already put forth) is a "HELL NO" vote - I will commit, however, to read this football bat that Luis and other lapdogs are busy putting in a contract form/wording whenever it comes out but I suspect there will be much open-ended language and other general "welfare" crap for both the company and union and little (no pun intended), if not less, for the workers. All will be well defined with nothing I consider a loophole if I'm to give a "yes" vote but I know better. It's a shame others still believe they're being watched over for their $45/month - the SOBs ought to be paying us.

Not trying to be insulting to you or Kevin, but simply stating facts as I see them.
 
D

DallasConehead

Guest
When Videtich came into office, I thought and even he thought he was going to do allot to change how things are. But look at what has happened, he got the 100% pay raise after the concessionary agreement and we all got BOHICA.

I don't care who you are, what intentions you have, if you become a thorn in their side, (the International) , then get them a deal that helps the Company. Then they WILL hire you and you WILL sell out for the $$ and the Int/Company Line, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Don't worry pro AMT, they'll you over there in Vegas, you and your delegates WILL vote the way they want you too. Guaranteed.

WE ARE ALL SCREWED WITH THIS UNION.

We should decertify these buttholes as fast as possible.
 

toroshark

Senior
Mar 12, 2003
266
295
When Videtich came into office, I thought and even he thought he was going to do allot to change how things are. But look at what has happened, he got the 100% pay raise after the concessionary agreement and we all got BOHICA.

I don't care who you are, what intentions you have, if you become a thorn in their side, (the International) , then get them a deal that helps the Company. Then they WILL hire you and you WILL sell out for the $$ and the Int/Company Line, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Don't worry pro AMT, they'll you over there in Vegas, you and your delegates WILL vote the way they want you too. Guaranteed.

WE ARE ALL SCREWED WITH THIS UNION.

We should decertify these buttholes as fast as possible.
Phat Don was a gravy gobbler from the word go! That guy had and has arrogance that is over the top. I do hope that you guys have the stones to not cross over to the dark side but as with everything to do with the union nowadays, i hold little hope.
 

skydrol

Advanced
Oct 19, 2003
158
58
It is the way the twu is structured. On AA Negotiation"s website we are # 6 in pay. (m&R) Ramp #2. People who have strong feelings about having a democratic union in m&r who often voice their opinions on this board with vigor for many years,get elected, get their pay raise, get their other scams and all of a sudden become quiet. You cannot even get these folks to say anything negative about the twu in private. However for many years you can pull up old posts from them complaining about the twu and the downfalls. Same thing has happend in my local again and again. This union sucks needs, to go IT IS JUST A DUES COLLECTION BUISNESS, Dennis I am not in your local but would bet you will fall in line once elected. P.S. luis was supposed to be the hereo in your local if you remember it took two runnings for his supporters to elect him now what? can you say sell out. DUMP THE TWU THEY SUCK ARE A BUISNESS.
 

Boomer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
1,139
70
I can guarantee you our sole intent is not garnering favor with the organization that has boo foo'd the workforce time and time again. We're as tired of the b.s. as you. We have identified a real problem here something other candidates don't have the nards to admit.

You can do nothing and let the next puppet in the gate or you can give us a little of your trust and help unravel the mess we're in.

You got to take a stand sometime and Kevin and I believe voting NO and turning down that POS contract and electing a local administration that is openly hostile to the organization from NYC that undermines its workers every contract is the first step.

Your call Goose

I'm not from TUL, and I do not work there, but, if I were; I would request answers to the following:

1) Would you, and your running partner, be willing to sign off on a "No-Compete" clause which prevents you from joining the TWU International for a period of five years after leaving office?; and,

2) Would you, and your running partner, be willing to sign off on a personal promissory note, payable to the Membership of TWU Local 514, for all TWU Local 514 payments to you, and your running partner, over your entire elected period for a violation of that "No-Compete" clause as reimbursement?

For myself only: this is where I see the membership being, versus those that claim to want to fight on our behalf, within a system that is totally unaccountable.
 

Bob Owens

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Sep 9, 2002
14,274
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I'm not from TUL, and I do not work there, but, if I were; I would request answers to the following:

1) Would you, and your running partner, be willing to sign off on a "No-Compete" clause which prevents you from joining the TWU International for a period of five years after leaving office?; and,

2) Would you, and your running partner, be willing to sign off on a personal promissory note, payable to the Membership of TWU Local 514, for all TWU Local 514 payments to you, and your running partner, over your entire elected period for a violation of that "No-Compete" clause as reimbursement?

For myself only: this is where I see the membership being, versus those that claim to want to fight on our behalf, within a system that is totally unaccountable.

I know its not directed at me but you may be in my Local so I'll answer.

1) No, I would not, I would however be willing to Sign a no-compete clause in that I would not go into AMR Management though. In fact we have discussed adding it to our Bylaws but with all the other stuff going on its sort of slipped to the back burner. Keep in mind that the TWU we know is not the TWU that the SWA Flight Attendants or the LOCAL 100 members know. Our structure is screwed up, they actually have it pretty good.

2) Same as above. Our board advocated putting in Recall, and the members approved it, so if at any time the members feel we are slipping over to the dark side they can yank us out.
 

skydrol

Advanced
Oct 19, 2003
158
58
I know its not directed at me but you may be in my Local so I'll answer.

1) No, I would not, I would however be willing to Sign a no-compete clause in that I would not go into AMR Management though. In fact we have discussed adding it to our Bylaws but with all the other stuff going on its sort of slipped to the back burner. Keep in mind that the TWU we know is not the TWU that the SWA Flight Attendants or the LOCAL 100 members know. Our structure is screwed up, they actually have it pretty good.

2) Same as above. Our board advocated putting in Recall, and the members approved it, so if at any time the members feel we are slipping over to the dark side they can yank us out.


Just curious Bob why would you consider a position in the international besides the obvious scams and personal bennefits that go with selling out the membership ?
 

Boomer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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I know its not directed at me but you may be in my Local so I'll answer.

1) No, I would not, I would however be willing to Sign a no-compete clause in that I would not go into AMR Management though. In fact we have discussed adding it to our Bylaws but with all the other stuff going on its sort of slipped to the back burner. Keep in mind that the TWU we know is not the TWU that the SWA Flight Attendants or the LOCAL 100 members know. Our structure is screwed up, they actually have it pretty good.

2) Same as above. Our board advocated putting in Recall, and the members approved it, so if at any time the members feel we are slipping over to the dark side they can yank us out.

You are right, it was not directed at you; but since you chose to answer, I'll play.

I believe a Union is only justified in their existence when they improve the wages, benefits and working conditions of their members. The TWU has failed on all three accounts. The fact is that due to the miserable representation from the International to the membership: there really is not much difference between the company that desires to screw us and our union that actually does it.

Scope is non-existant, retiree benefits are at risk, pensions are underfunded, wages are at the bottom of our peer group, working conditions continue to decline: the only thing the TWU can say is that they kept overhaul. Being the lone air carrier to retain overhaul does nothing in and of itself for the membership since both the union and the company are willing to come to any agreement that results in the rank and file subsidizing its' existence through repeated concessions.

The TWU International owns the contract that directly affects the membership, but, is not elected by the membership and the membership is forced to pay union dues to the Union as a condition of employment. Heads they win, tails we lose.

I say: let every last one of the b@$t@rd$ that wants to go into management, go; what we must stop is the same type going into the International, because I don't see a nickels worth of difference between the two and at least if they go into management, they lose their seniority after the 180 days.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
You are right, it was not directed at you; but since you chose to answer, I'll play.

I believe a Union is only justified in their existence when they improve the wages, benefits and working conditions of their members.

I agree.

The TWU has failed on all three accounts.

Again, I agree.

The fact is that due to the miserable representation from the International to the membership: there really is not much difference between the company that desires to screw us and our union that actually does it.

Once again, I agree, We have a problem that SWA and Local 100 doesnt have, the people who negotiate their contracts are accountable and their Locals own the agreement, we have appointed people who negotiate our contract that are not accountable to us, they dont have to live under the terms they tell us are the best we should expect. SWA and Local 100 are in the TWU like us but under a competely different structure.

Several months ago I requested that Jim Little take over our negotiations after I saw where we were headed, why keep up the charade of the "negotiations committee". The only negotaiting that the committee does is internal, we arent allowed to speak in front of the company, only the International can speak. I think I requested that Thom McDaniels be assigned to head our negotiations, he did a pretty good job over at SWA and he doesnt have the ties with AA management that the AA/ATD guys have.

Too many of our leaders have a very negative attitude towards the members they claim to serve. I heard one President say that if they went on strike they would have footprints across the backs of their shirts, another recently told his members to "shut their pie holes". We always hear about how the labor movement is failing because of the members, I say that the movement is failing because of the leaders, the leaders assume that the members will fail them so they beat them to the punch, while often collecting their six figure salaries and benifits they feel the members dont deserve.

Scope is non-existant, retiree benefits are at risk, pensions are underfunded, wages are at the bottom of our peer group, working conditions continue to decline: the only thing the TWU can say is that they kept overhaul. Being the lone air carrier to retain overhaul does nothing in and of itself for the membership since both the union and the company are willing to come to any agreement that results in the rank and file subsidizing its' existence through repeated concessions.

The fact is we dont really know if thats the case. We have never been given any solid numbers. Our union has never investigated it. The Economist they hired is more sympathetic to the company, when I insisted that we refer to this as a five year deal he said "Well its really only a two and a half year deal when you factor in the early opener". We cant really compare what MROs pay their workers to what AA pays their OH mechanics because if AA sent their work there they would be paying what the MRO charges per hour not what they pay their workers per hour. This means that there's a lot of room for our guys to be paid considerably more than what MROs pay their guys, add in the cost and quality control advantages of keeping it in house and our guys are worth even more. Granted the line at which its no longer cost effective is probably below the $46.99 that UPS offered its mechanics but its certainly higher than what this TA has to offer. Unfortunately they have a lot of people believing that they have to compete with the wages MROs pay instead of the rate MROs charge. The biggest mistake our OH workers could make is to start to consider themselves MRO workers instead of Airline workers. Chasing 3P work for anything more than fill in work can only lead to lower living standards. Yes for now OH will shrink, but that doesnt mean layoffs, attrition will likely outpace the need to cut heads and reduced capacity. When the economy recovers the airlines will likely face a shortage. Mergers may be the only way to aquire enough workers.

The TWU International owns the contract that directly affects the membership, but, is not elected by the membership and the membership is forced to pay union dues to the Union as a condition of employment. Heads they win, tails we lose.

Again, thats because of our fractured structure, what the International did to the membership from a organizational perspective this TA will do from a contractual, fracture it. Good for the International as far as the balance of power, good for the company, bad for the members.

I say: let every last one of the b@$t@rd$ that wants to go into management, go; what we must stop is the same type going into the International, because I don't see a nickels worth of difference between the two and at least if they go into management, they lose their seniority after the 180 days.

When people run they often make promises they cant deliver, thats their first mistake and their first step towards the dark side. The only promise I ever make is that I will do my best, I say what my intentions are and what changes I'd like to make but I dont make promises. I see guys take these positions who seem to start out with the best of intentions, get overwhelmed by the challenges of the job and then feel forced to turn to the International for help. Thats their second step towards the dark side. Sure I turn to them for help as well, but I look at it as thats why we pay them 30% of the dues. Often the guys cant take any criticsm from their members, they end up looking at their entire membership as hostile and they talk about their membership negatively. Thats the third step towards the dark side. This makes them easy prey for the AA-ATD which is dominated by former officers who were voted out of office. They join with the ATD in talking bad about the membership, forgetting that this is the same membership that they solicited votes from. This is the fourth step towards the dark side, their transformation is nearly complete, all they need now is to wait for the next Convention, however if they get voted out before then they usually end up in management..
 

Boomer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
1,139
70
I agree.



Again, I agree.



Once again, I agree, We have a problem that SWA and Local 100 doesnt have, the people who negotiate their contracts are accountable and their Locals own the agreement, we have appointed people who negotiate our contract that are not accountable to us, they dont have to live under the terms they tell us are the best we should expect. SWA and Local 100 are in the TWU like us but under a competely different structure.

Several months ago I requested that Jim Little take over our negotiations after I saw where we were headed, why keep up the charade of the "negotiations committee". The only negotaiting that the committee does is internal, we arent allowed to speak in front of the company, only the International can speak. I think I requested that Thom McDaniels be assigned to head our negotiations, he did a pretty good job over at SWA and he doesnt have the ties with AA management that the AA/ATD guys have.

Too many of our leaders have a very negative attitude towards the members they claim to serve. I heard one President say that if they went on strike they would have footprints across the backs of their shirts, another recently told his members to "shut their pie holes". We always hear about how the labor movement is failing because of the members, I say that the movement is failing because of the leaders, the leaders assume that the members will fail them so they beat them to the punch, while often collecting their six figure salaries and benifits they feel the members dont deserve.



The fact is we dont really know if thats the case. We have never been given any solid numbers. Our union has never investigated it. The Economist they hired is more sympathetic to the company, when I insisted that we refer to this as a five year deal he said "Well its really only a two and a half year deal when you factor in the early opener". We cant really compare what MROs pay their workers to what AA pays their OH mechanics because if AA sent their work there they would be paying what the MRO charges per hour not what they pay their workers per hour. This means that there's a lot of room for our guys to be paid considerably more than what MROs pay their guys, add in the cost and quality control advantages of keeping it in house and our guys are worth even more. Granted the line at which its no longer cost effective is probably below the $46.99 that UPS offered its mechanics but its certainly higher than what this TA has to offer. Unfortunately they have a lot of people believing that they have to compete with the wages MROs pay instead of the rate MROs charge. The biggest mistake our OH workers could make is to start to consider themselves MRO workers instead of Airline workers. Chasing 3P work for anything more than fill in work can only lead to lower living standards. Yes for now OH will shrink, but that doesnt mean layoffs, attrition will likely outpace the need to cut heads and reduced capacity. When the economy recovers the airlines will likely face a shortage. Mergers may be the only way to aquire enough workers.



Again, thats because of our fractured structure, what the International did to the membership from a organizational perspective this TA will do from a contractual, fracture it. Good for the International as far as the balance of power, good for the company, bad for the members.



When people run they often make promises they cant deliver, thats their first mistake and their first step towards the dark side. The only promise I ever make is that I will do my best, I say what my intentions are and what changes I'd like to make but I dont make promises. I see guys take these positions who seem to start out with the best of intentions, get overwhelmed by the challenges of the job and then feel forced to turn to the International for help. Thats their second step towards the dark side. Sure I turn to them for help as well, but I look at it as thats why we pay them 30% of the dues. Often the guys cant take any criticsm from their members, they end up looking at their entire membership as hostile and they talk about their membership negatively. Thats the third step towards the dark side. This makes them easy prey for the AA-ATD which is dominated by former officers who were voted out of office. They join with the ATD in talking bad about the membership, forgetting that this is the same membership that they solicited votes from. This is the fourth step towards the dark side, their transformation is nearly complete, all they need now is to wait for the next Convention, however if they get voted out before then they usually end up in management..

Bob,

I've heard the music and been asked to the reform dance for far too long to be willing to listen to the prelude again.

You said that you would be willing to sign off on a no-compete clause for local union leaders going over to the company and then defended local union leaders going over to the TWU International: while agreeing that the TWU International and their ownership of our contracts is the root cause of the failure of this Union to deliver improvements in the wages, benefits and working conditions of the membership.

You cannot hold both sides of the same coin.

The only "No-Compete" clause that holds any water in the reform reservoir is the one that holds Local Union Leadership Directly Accountable to the Membership PRIOR to their ascension to the TWU International throne. After the individual has been crowned, there is no longer any accountability to the membership.

Therefore: let those that run on a change platform in the Overhaul bases be the first to pledge that they will not go to the dark side by contracting themselves first to the membership and then to the Union.
 
OP
proAMT

proAMT

Advanced
Dec 3, 2005
246
153
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I don't have to commit to anything but I will. It probably won't make you happy.

I promise the membership of the TWU Local 514 that I will not jump ship to management. My commitment will be two years after any term I am elected to. To be honest the idea of working management is repugnant to me and I cannot fore see any situation where I might be tempted to jump ship but it seems to mean a lot to folks that I make some sort of commitment. My opinion of management is obviously not very high. My opinion of union officers that jump over to management-well they rank right up there with Benedict Arnold, only the union officer who jumped ship is worse imho. A regular management member walks on water compared to this trader slug.

The International I am not willing to make a commitment because I want to leave open the option of hostile take over with a B slate.
Remember when Jack Nicholson played the Joker in Batman he said, "This town needs an enema". Well my opinion is the International needs an enema. They have forgotten that the power needs to be in the hands of the membership.

I support democratic reforms such as the ones the group from JFK attempted to bring forth at the convention-it is embarrassing that these democratic reforms did not even make it to the floor. Evolve or dissolve is nothing but a load of bull#### the International likes to spew these days. Their words say one thing their actions say another.

I will make one more promise I promise I will never, ever, leave the local part way into the term to serve some selfish self interest such as a International position. When that occurred in Tulsa (more than once) it proved to me that the International did not care about us. Look what was left to "negotiate" for us in 2003!

I am more than sure you are not satisfied with my promises but like you I am very cynical about the type of "leadership" we have had ever since Ed Wilson left the local.

Print this out and hold me accountable.

Dennis Hayes
 
T

The Goose

Guest
Bob,

I've heard the music and been asked to the reform dance for far too long to be willing to listen to the prelude again.

You said that you would be willing to sign off on a no-compete clause for local union leaders going over to the company and then defended local union leaders going over to the TWU International: while agreeing that the TWU International and their ownership of our contracts is the root cause of the failure of this Union to deliver improvements in the wages, benefits and working conditions of the membership.

You cannot hold both sides of the same coin.

The only "No-Compete" clause that holds any water in the reform reservoir is the one that holds Local Union Leadership Directly Accountable to the Membership PRIOR to their ascension to the TWU International throne. After the individual has been crowned, there is no longer any accountability to the membership.

Therefore: let those that run on a change platform in the Overhaul bases be the first to pledge that they will not go to the dark side by contracting themselves first to the membership and then to the Union.

Mr. Boomer, I've heard so many pledges (which were always broken) from so many lying SOBs at American since I've been there I don't care to hear any more - very much like you and your invitations to the "reform dance".

There's nothing left to repair within the TWU and I've come to see any effort to run for office in said an attempt to cash in on a trip to the International after doing its bidding.

The only vote I plan on casting is either a decertification vote to oust the TWU or a vote to install another (making the assumption there's actually something out there worth a diddly-damn) union.

Anything else is a waste of my time, as it is for everyone else at AA.
 

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