From the twu sponsored website that won't allow comments from outsiders:
http://www.pfaawatch.com/eeindex.php/forums/viewthread/1802/
http://www.pfaawatch.com/eeindex.php/forums/viewthread/1802/
Twu Spreading Lies At To Nwa F/a's
- Thread starter AMFAMAN
- Start date
PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH
Veteran
- Oct 9, 2003
- 1,401
- 2
This Byron Grays is sure one stupid individual. Anybody who has ever read Bob Owens' posts knows that he is a true unionist, who was thrown out of office because he stood up for the members of the union,not the EVIL TWU international bosses. Only a dummy would vote to have the TWU as their representative. Might as well work for free,if you join the TWU.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,767
So when Bob Owens "raids" his union of oath, he is an evil man with suspect intentions.
But when Byron D. Grays does it, his is politically correct and should be held with high credibility?
Why the double standard?
I also notice he was somehow connected to H.R., hmmm, a TWU Company Union Man without question!
Beware NWA Flight Attendants, the TWU is as bad as it gets. The TWU has been called the most Docile Union in the airline industry by aviation analyst.
But when Byron D. Grays does it, his is politically correct and should be held with high credibility?
Why the double standard?
I also notice he was somehow connected to H.R., hmmm, a TWU Company Union Man without question!
Beware NWA Flight Attendants, the TWU is as bad as it gets. The TWU has been called the most Docile Union in the airline industry by aviation analyst.
- Thread Starter
- #4
TWU in Action
They will promise you anything in front of you but behind closed doors, the truth comes out.
The truth:
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
Why don't you guys post something where you have done something about doing something about the TWU? If having a union represent you is so democratic do something about it instead of moaning about them on this forum. You guys continue to talk about how you guys are brothers and are united in solidarity yet from what I have seen you are a bunch of miserable individuals that are lost and are willing to pay any one that you can cry to when "THE MAN"
Why don't you guys post something where you have done something about doing something about the TWU? If having a union represent you is so democratic do something about it instead of moaning about them on this forum. You guys continue to talk about how you guys are brothers and are united in solidarity yet from what I have seen you are a bunch of miserable individuals that are lost and are willing to pay any one so that you can cry to them when "THE MAN" looks at you the wrong way. Do yourselves a favor and go get a life.
Why don't you guys post something where you have done something about doing something about the TWU? If having a union represent you is so democratic do something about it instead of moaning about them on this forum. You guys continue to talk about how you guys are brothers and are united in solidarity yet from what I have seen you are a bunch of miserable individuals that are lost and are willing to pay any one so that you can cry to them when "THE MAN" looks at you the wrong way. Do yourselves a favor and go get a life.
local 12 proud
Veteran
- Mar 5, 2004
- 4,265
- 4
PTO that remark just shows how really out of touch you are with what is,and has been taking place concerning AMFA. WHY DON'T YOU either educate yourself about the subject are shut your PIEHOLE!
Hackman
Veteran
- Sep 30, 2003
- 3,997
- 898
The PlaytheCods quote of the week: "Why don't you guys post something where you have done something about doing something about the TWU?" Holey sheit, I just makes one shake his head in disbelief in the sheer uneducated stupidity of this scab "know-it-all". Then he posts the sentence twice in his diatribe. :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
Something went very wrong there. I wonder if AMFA sabotaged my laptop. Regardless you get the jest of my post. Also local I was talking about the TWU not AMFA. I have indeed been getting an education on AMFA and other unions as well.
To Byron:
I see you seem to think that you are qualified to tell people who I am and what motivates me.
Do I know you?
Have we met?
At any time feel free to challange anything I've written about the TWU.
Since I do not recall ever meeting you I have to wonder who told you these things about me?
Some are true. I was elected to the position of Treasurer of Local 562 both times I ran for the position, by wide margins I might add.
I did take an oath and as far as I’m concerned I did not violate the oath. Maybe you should read the Constitution, especially the first couple of pages Article II (B) in particular. You do have a copy right? You see contrary to what you were told I was removed because I opposed what the International was doing to workers in order to make themselves rich. A union is supposed to make things better for the members; the TWU just makes things better for the International.
Did the people who told you who I was inform you of how I was trying to make the TWU more Democratic? Did they inform you how I sent E-mails to all the Presidents in the system urging them to try and bring electronic voting to the TWU Convention? Electronic voting would enable members to see exactly how their representatives voted at the Convention, it would give the member’s access and accountability. Those are two things the TWU International does not want the members to have.
Did the people who told you who I was inform you that I was working with Local 100 and several leaders from Local 234 to bring about reforms to the TWU?
The fact is that the International removed me from office in an attempt to silence me.
During my “trial†I testified that when it comes between siding with the International and the members I would choose the members. The International said, “this admission constitutes a violation of his oathâ€. However the TWU International claims, “the members are the ultimate authorityâ€. At least thats what the members are told, and I have no doubt they are telling the NWA FAs the same thing. Dont believe it, its a lie.
One of the other things the TWU International spun during my trial was my effort to see AFL-CIO unions consolidate airline workers into one powerful union. I brought this forward very early in my tenure as an officer. In fact I have several letters between Sonny Hall and myself on the subject. Talking about merging unions is not dual unionism. Sonny Hall even claimed that he favored the idea, so did every other TWU official that I spoke to about it including Mike Baklava, Jim Little and Bobby Gless. None of them claimed that what I was saying amounted to dual unionism. Dual unionism was not mentioned until I was charged, over three years after I first brought it up and only weeks after Sonny and I met in May of 2003 and once again discussed the idea. (In fact at that meeting Sonny spoke about his attempts to bring about a merger between the TWU and ATU.) Despite all the evidence as to what my intentions were Sonny's hand picked panel said “since no such union exists Brother Owens could only have meant AMFAâ€.
The fact is as a TWU officer my intentions were to change the TWU into a real union that fights for its members. That’s unacceptable. In fact the trial committee, the voice of the International says that elected Local officers have to be loyal to the International, not to the members that elected them. So as a TWU member you do not get a union, you get another Boss, the International. If the leaders you elect offend the International, who the members do not elect and cannot remove, the International will remove them.
I do not deny that what I said was offensive to the International. I said that Jim Little should be removed from office. I said that Bobby Gless should be removed from office. I told Sonny that he was no longer fit to run a labor union and that for the sake of the movement he should step down and allow a younger person with a little more energy to run the TWU before its too late. I said that’s its wrong for the workers at AA to have someone in charge of their contracts that was appointed, not elected, someone who is not accountable to the members who work under the agreement. I said that the TWUs lack of democracy and accountabity was the prime motive for members wanting to leave the TWU.
I did not become a TWU officer in order to start a new career but to save the career I had. I figured that my peers had the same expectations, all of them in every department. I felt I worked for them, not the guys pulling down up to $200,000 a year plus the kickbacks from companies where they “represent†people and the insurance companies that sell coverage to replace what the TWU gives away at the bargaining table.
Do I have a beef with the TWU International? YOU BET I DO!!! They destroyed this industry for airline workers and made themselves rich in the process. The last thing that NWA Flight Attendants want is to be represented by the TWU, you would be better off with no union at all than the TWU. Clearly, if you are determined to leave the PFAA and desire AFL-CIO affiliation then you should join a union that is run by and for airline workers, the AFA. If you vote for the TWU you will get a school bus driver from suburban Pennsylvania who never worked in the airline industry who was hand picked by Sonny Hall, the corrupt union official who was found guilty of violating workers rights, as your President, and someone who spent many years in American Airlines management, Jim Little, as the next in line. Jim Little is already head of the ATD, despite the fact that he has led the industry in concessions to benefit American Airlines, where he and his father in law were both in management. Little has seen a dramatic rise in his income over the last few years, while airline workers have seen the opposite. And that’s only the part we see that comes from the union dues, who knows how much he gets from the airlines? The first class seats for his family to Hawaii that were reported on chat sights, if true, probably are only the tip of the iceberg.
As an addition to the TWU/ATD you would be just a small sattlite local, everything about the TWU/ATD revolves around American Airlines, its where Jim Little was in management and most of the International ATD officers come from. The TWU/ATD even moved their headquarters to Dallas to be near AAs headquarters instead of in NYC like the rest of the International.
By the way the TWU is currently under investigation by the DOL for accepting payments of around $3.1 million a year from American Airlines. The airline threatened to discontinue these payments if the TWU did not get concessions of at least 25% per member. Neither party filed the required financial disclosure forms with the government. In other words TWU officials were paid off for the largest concessions package ever, AA competes with NWA in the lucrative Pacific market and more than likely had a big part in NWAs difficulties. Would you really want to join the union that helped put NWA in the position it’s in? The PFAA and the AFA have their problems but the TWUs problems make them look very minor in comparasion.
Since you felt free to charecterize me allow me the opportunity to do the same to you.
Why would an FA want to join a union that is too small to have the resources but too big to make positve changes to?
The TWU has around 115,000 members. 38,000 are in LOCAL 100. LOCAL 100 represents Transit workers in NYC. So that leaves around 80,000 members spread out from NYC to Hawaii in scores of Industries in hundreds of Locals, many so tiny that they can not afford to bring cases to arbitration or have any full time staff. Casino card dealers in Vegas, school bus drivers in Mississippi, government workers in Florida etc, in other words they have no special interest in Flight attendants or their issues, you are simply another source of dues, and with the pay perks and pensions that the TWU International lavishes on themselves they need all the dues they can get.
Is that what drew you to the TWU, a chance to get on the International gravy train?
The TWU has all the drawbacks of the IBT without any of the positives, unless of course you become an International officer that is.
Are you being paid for your organizing eforts Byron?
Who pays for the PFAAWATCH website?
The "Coalition"? If so who funds this coalition?
Have you recieved any money from the TWU?
As a flight atendant why do you feel that your profession is better off to be in a small fractured union (the TWU) that collects dues from anyone in any industry, in other words a business union, instead of a union that specializes in flight attendant issues?
Come on now Byron of all the unions out there why would you pick the industry leader in concessions? Could it be the fact that despite its small size (less than 10% of the IBT) that the TWU offers union officers top pay, somtimes subsidized by the companies, while screwing over the members?
I see you seem to think that you are qualified to tell people who I am and what motivates me.
Do I know you?
Have we met?
At any time feel free to challange anything I've written about the TWU.
Since I do not recall ever meeting you I have to wonder who told you these things about me?
Some are true. I was elected to the position of Treasurer of Local 562 both times I ran for the position, by wide margins I might add.
I did take an oath and as far as I’m concerned I did not violate the oath. Maybe you should read the Constitution, especially the first couple of pages Article II (B) in particular. You do have a copy right? You see contrary to what you were told I was removed because I opposed what the International was doing to workers in order to make themselves rich. A union is supposed to make things better for the members; the TWU just makes things better for the International.
Did the people who told you who I was inform you of how I was trying to make the TWU more Democratic? Did they inform you how I sent E-mails to all the Presidents in the system urging them to try and bring electronic voting to the TWU Convention? Electronic voting would enable members to see exactly how their representatives voted at the Convention, it would give the member’s access and accountability. Those are two things the TWU International does not want the members to have.
Did the people who told you who I was inform you that I was working with Local 100 and several leaders from Local 234 to bring about reforms to the TWU?
The fact is that the International removed me from office in an attempt to silence me.
During my “trial†I testified that when it comes between siding with the International and the members I would choose the members. The International said, “this admission constitutes a violation of his oathâ€. However the TWU International claims, “the members are the ultimate authorityâ€. At least thats what the members are told, and I have no doubt they are telling the NWA FAs the same thing. Dont believe it, its a lie.
One of the other things the TWU International spun during my trial was my effort to see AFL-CIO unions consolidate airline workers into one powerful union. I brought this forward very early in my tenure as an officer. In fact I have several letters between Sonny Hall and myself on the subject. Talking about merging unions is not dual unionism. Sonny Hall even claimed that he favored the idea, so did every other TWU official that I spoke to about it including Mike Baklava, Jim Little and Bobby Gless. None of them claimed that what I was saying amounted to dual unionism. Dual unionism was not mentioned until I was charged, over three years after I first brought it up and only weeks after Sonny and I met in May of 2003 and once again discussed the idea. (In fact at that meeting Sonny spoke about his attempts to bring about a merger between the TWU and ATU.) Despite all the evidence as to what my intentions were Sonny's hand picked panel said “since no such union exists Brother Owens could only have meant AMFAâ€.
The fact is as a TWU officer my intentions were to change the TWU into a real union that fights for its members. That’s unacceptable. In fact the trial committee, the voice of the International says that elected Local officers have to be loyal to the International, not to the members that elected them. So as a TWU member you do not get a union, you get another Boss, the International. If the leaders you elect offend the International, who the members do not elect and cannot remove, the International will remove them.
I do not deny that what I said was offensive to the International. I said that Jim Little should be removed from office. I said that Bobby Gless should be removed from office. I told Sonny that he was no longer fit to run a labor union and that for the sake of the movement he should step down and allow a younger person with a little more energy to run the TWU before its too late. I said that’s its wrong for the workers at AA to have someone in charge of their contracts that was appointed, not elected, someone who is not accountable to the members who work under the agreement. I said that the TWUs lack of democracy and accountabity was the prime motive for members wanting to leave the TWU.
I did not become a TWU officer in order to start a new career but to save the career I had. I figured that my peers had the same expectations, all of them in every department. I felt I worked for them, not the guys pulling down up to $200,000 a year plus the kickbacks from companies where they “represent†people and the insurance companies that sell coverage to replace what the TWU gives away at the bargaining table.
Do I have a beef with the TWU International? YOU BET I DO!!! They destroyed this industry for airline workers and made themselves rich in the process. The last thing that NWA Flight Attendants want is to be represented by the TWU, you would be better off with no union at all than the TWU. Clearly, if you are determined to leave the PFAA and desire AFL-CIO affiliation then you should join a union that is run by and for airline workers, the AFA. If you vote for the TWU you will get a school bus driver from suburban Pennsylvania who never worked in the airline industry who was hand picked by Sonny Hall, the corrupt union official who was found guilty of violating workers rights, as your President, and someone who spent many years in American Airlines management, Jim Little, as the next in line. Jim Little is already head of the ATD, despite the fact that he has led the industry in concessions to benefit American Airlines, where he and his father in law were both in management. Little has seen a dramatic rise in his income over the last few years, while airline workers have seen the opposite. And that’s only the part we see that comes from the union dues, who knows how much he gets from the airlines? The first class seats for his family to Hawaii that were reported on chat sights, if true, probably are only the tip of the iceberg.
As an addition to the TWU/ATD you would be just a small sattlite local, everything about the TWU/ATD revolves around American Airlines, its where Jim Little was in management and most of the International ATD officers come from. The TWU/ATD even moved their headquarters to Dallas to be near AAs headquarters instead of in NYC like the rest of the International.
By the way the TWU is currently under investigation by the DOL for accepting payments of around $3.1 million a year from American Airlines. The airline threatened to discontinue these payments if the TWU did not get concessions of at least 25% per member. Neither party filed the required financial disclosure forms with the government. In other words TWU officials were paid off for the largest concessions package ever, AA competes with NWA in the lucrative Pacific market and more than likely had a big part in NWAs difficulties. Would you really want to join the union that helped put NWA in the position it’s in? The PFAA and the AFA have their problems but the TWUs problems make them look very minor in comparasion.
Since you felt free to charecterize me allow me the opportunity to do the same to you.
Why would an FA want to join a union that is too small to have the resources but too big to make positve changes to?
The TWU has around 115,000 members. 38,000 are in LOCAL 100. LOCAL 100 represents Transit workers in NYC. So that leaves around 80,000 members spread out from NYC to Hawaii in scores of Industries in hundreds of Locals, many so tiny that they can not afford to bring cases to arbitration or have any full time staff. Casino card dealers in Vegas, school bus drivers in Mississippi, government workers in Florida etc, in other words they have no special interest in Flight attendants or their issues, you are simply another source of dues, and with the pay perks and pensions that the TWU International lavishes on themselves they need all the dues they can get.
Is that what drew you to the TWU, a chance to get on the International gravy train?
The TWU has all the drawbacks of the IBT without any of the positives, unless of course you become an International officer that is.
Are you being paid for your organizing eforts Byron?
Who pays for the PFAAWATCH website?
The "Coalition"? If so who funds this coalition?
Have you recieved any money from the TWU?
As a flight atendant why do you feel that your profession is better off to be in a small fractured union (the TWU) that collects dues from anyone in any industry, in other words a business union, instead of a union that specializes in flight attendant issues?
Come on now Byron of all the unions out there why would you pick the industry leader in concessions? Could it be the fact that despite its small size (less than 10% of the IBT) that the TWU offers union officers top pay, somtimes subsidized by the companies, while screwing over the members?
Bob Owens,
You sound like a man who truly cares about people. You should run for real office, political office. What a horrible experience your twu experience must have been
it sounds like you were working hard to make a positive difference, its a shame you didnt succeed but got railroaded instead. TWU = CORRUPTION
You sound like a man who truly cares about people. You should run for real office, political office. What a horrible experience your twu experience must have been
it sounds like you were working hard to make a positive difference, its a shame you didnt succeed but got railroaded instead. TWU = CORRUPTION
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
That is a most impressive post Bob, it is a shame that a man of your stature only makes up less than a half of a percent of the union officials out there. If the numbers were reversed there would be a place for unions but unfortunately they are not therefore the unions must go.
- Thread Starter
- #13
Since we are still not aloud access to this twu site, I will respond here and hopefully someone will copy and paste it on the twu sposored site.
Thom McDaniel was what was condiserded a radical within the twu and continually threatened to take the F/A's out of the twu if the Intl got in his way. That all changed last month as he is now a fan of the twu upon getting the appointment to the twu International VP, a 100k a year plus local, plus company salary job. In other words a 200k a year F/A, not bad. BTW...there is a new movement at SWA F/A's to rid themselves of the twu and has been gaining strength since his appointment. Like Thom, I am sure Byron has a deal worked out for himself if the twu wins. This has happened at each successful drive, a payoff in the pay of an Intl position.
Anyone care to respond to this crap?
Having met Thom McDaniel, watching him in action all I can say is I hope you are wrong. The temptation to make a lot of money has corrupted many souls throughout history. Lets not forget that Benidict Arnold was once one of the Colonial Army's most successful Generals.
At the 2001 TWU Constitutional Convention Thom and his Local, along with Local 100 and some of the maint locals where out there pushing for reforms that would bring democracy and accountability to the members. I met Thom at the 2003 Cope Convention and he seemed to be a genuine unionist. I also admired his courage at supporting the AFA in their struggles after TWU International Rep Bobby Gless said they were stupid for resisting.
A few months back I replied to a broadcast E-mail and Thom was on the list. He responded that we should communicate with each other as he liked what I had to say. However I felt that I should inform him exactly who I was before we do that, after which he no longer responded.
So where he stands I'm not sure. Is he a true unionist who will fight to reform the TWU? Or will he be foolish enough to trust Jim Little and join the fold? Time will tell.
Pat Friend as President of the AFA earns $100,000 a year, or less than half of what the TWU pays their President, in fact the TWU pays the Presidents secretary more than the AFA pays their President. In fact the TWU pays all their flunkies very well, appointed International reps earn over $120,000. Thom McDaniel stands to make $20,000 more as an International rep than the President of the AFA!
http://erds.dol-esa.gov/query/getOrgQry.do
Just scroll down to the abbreviation for the union that you want to view.
The TWU is good for International officers but bad for workers.
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
AMFAMAN, with today’s choices for union representation anyone is better off without any union representation. I know that you see this. Not a single one of you guys gave wings an alternative to the two unions she asked about and you bashed both unions she asked about. It is apparent that the best vote is no to both.
